Looting items in PvP helps crafting! -- (Dev) Replied

Full loot might help crafting if only mundane equipment exists and it needs to be regularly replaced. The thing is that also makes such equipment sort of worthless to the looters. In my experience in UO no one (with some exceptions) used valuable equipment because they couldn't afford to lose it. And PKers/PvPers only bothered looting to grief people and would often just cut up your armour and leave it on your corpse. It was so easily replaceable that it wasn't of much value to them.

You can achieve similar aims of making crafters useful by getting rid of full loot and eliminating the bitter taste of grief/being looted by making equipment need regular repair or "reforging" by crafters. It would also mean people would be willing to actually make use of more valuable equipment too (which would cost more to maintain).

The key is ensuring that maintaining your equipment requires a crafter, not simply clicking some "repair all" button.

 

Cut up your armor? With leather, that was possible, but no one wore leather.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, full loot is useful in PvP beyond any monetary consideration. After all, if I just fought you to the death, would I want you res'ing with full gear? Not really. I'll take your gear if only to slow you down in becoming a threat again.

 

Salvage will keep most items craft-relevant if its designed right, even worn and damaged equipment could be worth something as a crafting mat to someone, and that just means a more active crafting economy as a result. I'm all for having a vibrant economy when it comes to crafting equipment, and anything to boost the trade of mats and upgrades will help crafters out.

I would feel sorry for those who get picked clean in OPO and give them a discount if they ever showed up at my storefront, but they're supporting something greater than themselves in contributing to pooling wealth in a way that will help the economy grow.

 

I like the idea of having full looting in the game to make pvp more exiting but... as far as if it is needed to keep balance in the crafting system i am not so sure. Maybe making items loose a lot of its "life" and therefore needing repair or replacement could help crafters.
Another thing of full looting that we need to keep in mind was the Pking of crafters wile they were harvesting resourses. It is so unfair that most ppl just quit doing it. A solution for it would be the crafter paying a soldier in the tavern, for instance, to protect his back, but making that npc a real challenge to kill for the player Pk. that way the crafter have a chance to escape and the Pk a chance "ïf he is really good" to get the resourses.

 

Full loot and PVP go hand in hand..all these cookie cutter games out now I feel are exactly what SoTA shouldn't be..and I think many agree, if not most.

Crafting and full loot generally have very little do with each other, but when you look at the bigger picture, they may just coincide a bit..

Ideally crafters have "resource gatherers" or may even be multi skilled enough just to kill cows/chickens etc..to harvest meat/leather/feathers or whatever they may need. Well by making a full loot aspect, yes that crafter/gatherer may be in more of a dangerous situation, but his wares will also come with a bit more work ( avoiding PK's, heavy hitting MOBS) etc..and in doing that his wares are more "valuable" wether it be monetarily or just as his own feeling of self accomplishment..

With that being said there "ARE" pros and cons..pros are simple, by adding a danger factor you won't have people farming 24/7 and destroying the economy with a huge influx of resources , who remembers UO minus the gold duping..millions of logs/ingots flooding the market within months periods, it'll deter scripting of any kind..atleast the afk kind. Some of the cons are much more obvious, things that you don't want to see. Griefing, this is the BIG one..you don't want to see players griefing the "noobs" or "Roleplayers" or for that fact anyone at all..there is nothing more annoying then making your character venturing out, collect your first 3k gold and getting PKed..I Agree! But it's essential to an immersive, realistic game. Unless your idea of fun is being left alone, being by yourself off in the woods and never having to see a single soul, there's a mode for that!

There needs to be "safe" areas for beginners, or even people just wanting to decorate their homes, or spark a conversation with the local blacksmith..but ideally "atleast for myself" full loot and full pvp(to an extent) are very important..

Another note..what if on death your givin a decision, based on the in game "worth" of your items you could pay to keep your backpack contents..or let it drop..based off your current bank balance. That would only include armor,weapons,clothes..consumables/gold/resources always drop

 

I can understand u Cazador,but in the real world i can too pay a security guy to protect my back wile i go to the bank deposit big cash.
I did not mention at all not to make crafters shielded from pvp. I just think that they must have some way to have a better chance.
Some fisherman in Real world like to use a fishing pole and some a TNT bomb. I dont think it is a fulfilling experiance to kick a drunk guy laying on the ground nor to rob a kid's lollipop.

 

Well if anything it drives players to "play together" if you remember or played the first age of UO..yes a lot if players lost gear, and a lot of players were griefed..being on both sides of that fight at one time or another it's builds you into a smarter player, you know that guild A frequents this dungeon..so if you go bring friends, or find another dungeon for the next hour or so of you truly are a solo player..it's not the best solution but it is one..the blue vs red battles on UO Chesapeake circa 1998 were EPIC! The blues rallied together to fight off the PK guild who was camping the bone walls..and together pushed them back and farmed freely..it built community and a sense of togetherness..we always look at the bad things and never the good.."oh well those jerks stole my weapons" go to the nearest bank and rally the PK hunters and go get them!!

 

Actually, the idea for SotA is for getting more powerful in combat and getting better at crafting to be completely independent. A single character can potentially be both the best fighter and the best crafter in the game.

In other words, a craftig character doesn't need to be any weaker in combat than a character that doesn't craft at all.

Keep in mind that players will be able to change their multiplayer settings more or less at will whenever in a safe place. Someone that gets burned out with the PvP can just switch to a game mode without PvP at all and keep playing, and even interacting with other online players, both directly (playing with friends) and indirectly (selling and purchasing through the vendors). And this is what will happen if PvP is too punishing, specially for the players that don't like to attack first and ask questions later.

And this is the one thing that often irks me in those arguments.

I don't want to be safe. I'm not interested in just picking flowers and talking in the tavern. I want to go out and face the hardest PvE challenges the game can throw at me, just like I do in every game I care to play.

Key point here being PvE. Not only I'm not interested in non-consensual PvP in any shape or form, it's existence in a game mode will completely keep me out of that game mode.

So, I look at safe zones as worthless and condescending. They are useless for someone that, like me, craves for PvE challenge but wants to avoid PvP. And many PvP proponents tend to point to them as a full answer, almost as if they were saying that anyone that doesn't want to be subject to PvP can't take any kind of challenge anyway.

Thankfully SotA will allow me to completely avoid PvP whenever I want, without being restricted to only playing in the kind of noob land that safe zones usually turn out to be.

It drives the players that were already predisposed to play together into playing together. It drives everyone else out of the game, though, which I don't think was good trade off for the devs and publisher, to the point non-consensual PvP was removed from a (large) part of UO back in 2000.

In SotA this issue might be even worse from the point of view of keeping players online and with PvP enabled because players have options that allow them to play the game while completely avoiding the PvP, which means they have even less to lose by getting out of reach of PvP players. Whereas early UO players had to completely give up on the game in order to be completely safe from griefers, SotA players will be able to do the same by selecting single player, online or offline, and still retain their ability to play the game; or even friends play online, and retain their ability to do co-op content with friends.

 

Right but I thought we were discussing PvP on feature..not how you personally want to not be subject to PvP and have the option to turn it off? I thought that was something already in the works?

Why would you suggest having a PvP option if you can get everything with zero risk turning off that specific type of gameplay?

So correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to out down your play style but I just want to get it straight..

You want to be able to farm freely, hunt freely with no resistance from players what so ever?

 

Pretty much.

Like most people on the "open PvP" side of the fence you seem to take the position that there is no challenge in an online game unless other players can kill you. This just isn't true.

Some players prefer co-operative gameplay over competitive gameplay such as PvP. SotA seems to want to accommodate both groups. In one way you're right - just accommodating the open PvP crowd would drive the other players to play together - but it'll be in another game.

 

Ok well that's what I'm saying though Ashlyn...completely open , and friends are two separate options..from I heard it means that for people who don't want to PvP can be in the selective group and only see people who are like minded..so with that said I'm curious why PvP in open mode even matters to most of you since you won't be in that group or cluster of people..unless your saying you want to actually play open mode with no full PvP/full loot to then which I guess, why should I even comment on it

 

From my experience full loot certainly helps crafters because once something is looted from you you go and buy another one. I've bought ten halberds in a row when otherwise I'd have needed one. Sometimes people loot you and don't even take it, they just leave it on the ground to decay so as to temporarily disarm you. Either way one must replace what they lost resulting in an extra sale for the smith.

 

The Problem with full loot is what really could happen to players. In theory "you sometimes loose and sometimes win" in reality there are many many players just loosing and getting frustrated. Take Mortal Online for example. As a newer player its nearly impossible to go from one city to the other without loosing all your stuff cause there are so many PK's. Even ultima online had that problem, but you tend to forget it.

I dont think looting is the "up to date" solution for the need of crafting and the risk in fighting. I think up to date is "decaye" relevant to your playstyle and success. For example:

1. You can repair weapons/armor. But just a few times before they get really crappy and overused
2. Fighting does dmg to your equipment
3. When you loose a fight your equipment get serious dmg
4. your equipment breaks down after much fighting

It needs to be a permanent process of "keeping your stuff working" that everyone can more or less calculate. You know that you need to spare money for repairs and new armor parts, because something breaks nearly daily.

when you want some more risk, add things like "battle sickness" that lasts 30 mins or is cureable by medicine you can buy from alchemists or whatever..

 

#Silent Strider said,
"For my part, while I might be willing to try whichever consensual PvP the game offers, don't ever expect to see me playing any PvP mode where I can be looted. The possibility of being looted is a huge deal breaker for me."

Ultimas have always been about immersion and simulation, and although coming back to life when you're killed by the hand of Lord British was a regularity in past games, I think everyone can agree that both killing others and being killed, should come with grave consequences. I wonder if the consequences to dying were great enough, players could become bandits who merely threaten the lives of others for their belongings and gold, rather than having to kill them for it?

I'm not taking one side or another personally. I think the system being designed in this game prevents people from having to deal with anyone outside their own group of friends if they so choose. Perhaps the 'selective multiplayer' dynamic being created for this game will allow some control by the individual players as to how much risk they take when playing with others.

I look forward to seeing how this plays out. Another great topic!

 

@Bzus
I feel like only certain things should be lootable

All usable items such as reagents, bandages, gold, food, ingots etc should be lootable. Anything you are wearing or holding should not, but instead take damage that needs to be repaired by a smith, which stimulated the crafting economy as well.

Perhaps make armor break after not being repaired or have it break regardless if its repaired too many times.

I also really like the idea @Wsye had regarding it takes time to loot stuff. When you are PvPing/PKing, time matter and maybe it takes 5 seconds to grab the dead guy's breastplate but during that 5 seconds you could be found and attacked by others! Maybe the owner comes back in 30 seconds and some of his stuff is still there (PLEASE create a way to disable rez-killing. Even as a dickhead PK that I was in UO, rez killing is definitely a great way to turn people off from the game, which no one wants)


Also a big thing that was in UO regarding losing gear was that there were no OMGWTFBBQ super rare magic items. Sure we had a couple of magic power levels (+1 through +5) but they were very expensive and no one used them in PVP. People just used regular armor and weapons which wasn't all that expensive to replace. And like I said, you really had to think twice before running in the wilderness with a ton of awesome stuff on you. This was also the grand equalizer, In games like WoW it is the richest players who have the best gear, or the ones who spend half their day gaming, in UO everyone could afford PvP armor and weapons and we all were using the same stuff. Only skill mattered.

As for the whole new players cant get around argument, I point to the [young] system in UO. Make new players untargetable for a certain amount of time (in UO I believe it was 7 days, but I honestly do not remember). This is sufficient time for a new player to learn the ropes and figure out how to avoid getting killed. Skills like hiding were very important in UO. Players learned to never travel with too much loot and to use mounts whenever possible. Risk increases the thrill of adventuring in the wilderness as well as creates completely fresh and unexpected experiences.

 

I think that you should be able to break your weapon over your opponent's head if you click the "crushing blow" option. That will keep a demand for new weapons!

 

You know, I've been griefed for bringing this topic up before, but after seeing someone say "if there is full loot, don't expect ME to play," my gears have been grinded.. Hah.

If there is ONE thing that I see 99% of people on this board agree on (and one of the few things.) it's that SotA should/will be different and BETTER than anything else on the market right now. I know that's what I'm expecting..

But when it comes to PvP/full loot/PK's.. It's "OH HELL NO, I don't want ANY of that stuff.. If there is full loot I WILL NOT PLAY.."

..whatever LB and the dev teams decide on will be great.

I hate to be that guy, but don't be scared. Not of PVP/PKs/full loot, but of CHANGE. If you want something that's on the market now, go play that instead. Let myself and everyone else that is willing to put our trust into the team that is putting this game together be open minded to whatever may or may not come at us in December and the following months.

You don't see me saying "NO FULL LOOT?! I'm not playing." Leave that attitude for other game boards.

 

It is particularly nonsensical when open PvP and full loot, if present, will be by consent only, and no one, NO ONE, will be subject to it unless they consent to be subject to it.

 

Exactly.. Seeing that comment had me scratching my head for a minute.

But Owain, from seeing what you've posted about you and your guild, I am more than excited to hopefully be at war with you very soon.. As I plan to bring back my PK from UO. Keep an eye out for a red named God.. Maybe we can be pals. Haha!

 

Friends as fellow gamers, sure, but deadly virtual enemies, always. RED = DEAD!