Move speed change is still bad

I really don't want SotA to become a grind just to get to the grind and it's already too much.

 

Of course you play the game, but yet, I don't think that you can reasonably say that you have fully tested every possible build in this game both in PvE and PvP. Also, I think that if you had played the game as much as some of us did, this game would still be a room with a chicken. So, while it's not fair to tell you that you don't play the game, there are possibly things that you do not fully control.

Archers are only a small part of the problem here. Some people who were complaining were simply not archers. The problem is with light armor. Sure, the bow don't deal much damage, but your "fix" is like a bandage on a wooden leg. As I said in another post :

So no, at least for my part, I was not begging and whining for some "bow buff". I was pointing a problem with Sprint, Wolf speed potions and Berserker Stance speed movement bonus. And yes, there is an underlying problem behind the bow philosophy here, but it's absolutely not the same problem. Our biggest rant was about light armor not being an efficient protection without speed.

It is a little peremptory to use PERIOD to close a debate, as if everyone had to accept the sentence, don't you think ? The reality is that even your post here doesn't answer the question EVERYONE asked, implicitely :

To be honest, I always found that magic spells had the preference in this game. And here is another demonstration that does not contradict this presumption. When Sprint and Dash both cost something like 5 focus to use, one will last for 1 minute, the other for 30 seconds, but the movement speed difference is almost 50% of a 125 Acrobatics with only 100 attunement. We both know that the duration can't be a reason which justify this difference. And the fizzle chance of Dash is barely noticeable even with chain armors. So there is clearly something wrong and no, I don't think that this speed fix is the correct one. In my opinion, you built a monster with the Attunement System : this system already forced people to invest experience in magic in order to resist magic, and it gives effects to spells that go beyond all reasonable proportions. So you feel compelled to correct that with speed, but you did it without any consideration for other skill situations that have never achieved 58 MPH or broke the game clock. Now Sprint, Wolf speed potions and Berserker Stance hardly achieve +1/+1.25 move speed bonus. And I can not see the usefulness of sprint or the potion anymore here.

...Now I did not even speak about the funny side effects :

I was one of the poster in this thread. I don't know if I have to feel concerned with this as long as yes, I went to play another game actually. But if your position is simply to say that I do not have the right to speak here just because I stopped playing, we obviously have a different approach to the discussion and freedom of expression, especially as I stopped playing after and because of your decision. Maybe you should ask yourself why someone who has played 4000 hours, who has been highly supportive for something like 2 years (including financialy) and who has gone through dozens of nerfs suddenly thinks that this game is no longer worth the time she played it and go away. Not that Shroud became a bad game (actually it's still a good game but not anymore for my play style, simply) just because of the speed nerf, but there is surely something to wonder there, I think, including about the methodology...

I sent you many private messages for years. Sometimes you answer, sometimes you don't. I have no problem with this because I know that you have very limited time. But do not make public commitments here that you simply can not honor.

 

I don't doubt that run speed was causing some problems, but this change is a pretty big nerf to almost everyone, most of whom probably weren't experiencing or creating any problems due to run speed. Not that the problem shouldn't be fixed, but this is a very unappealing solution. SotA fights vs. normal mobs are very fast, so even as a heavy armor melee type that isn't running away from anything, combat run speed still has a very large impact on how fast I kill things, because a relatively large amount of time is spent running around, and almost all time is spent in combat mode.

 

Speed changes are good, how the hell will they allow mounts in the future when everyone is already moving like the flash...

I welcome the change, we just gotta get used to it.

 

I now see why most Developers often decide to go with closed development instead of this open route. I do agree with you that Chris and the team does not log nearly as many hours as we the players do but what they do have is the data. So when we perceive an imbalance and post that feed back on the forums, I am sure Chris and the team turns to the data to see if what we perceive is true. Or they look at the data to see trends or areas that might be exploited. I applaud Port for doing that and responding fairly quickly most of the time to issues.

As gamers we are biased in that some of us look for ways to "game" the game. We try to figure out how to maximize DPS, EXP per hour, or gold per hour. The problem with playing a game that way is we create an imbalances to the game which can be exploited. I mean back in the day with UO players figured out that if you used the tree hack you could reduce lag and latency giving a player an advantage. Or how about the time in UO when they tried to do away with the AFK skill leveling by adding movement to skill gains and then someone figured out that still gain happen after movement in a pattern so people macros the 8x8 method. The list goes on, the gold duping in games like Diablo, the glitches in WoW where you use to be able to pull a Boss mob to a stop that they get stuck in so they can be killed easily. those things destroy the balance in a game.

I stated this before, I have not had any of my 4 toons be affected by the nerfs. My Paladin build took zero damage with 8 to 10 mobs on me. As cool as it was that I could do that and earn gold and XP with little risk, I can admit that it was broken. Even after the HUGE nerf as some would say I can still handle several mobs and only loss half health and it is a lot more fun then when I could farm hours with no issues. My ranger build with the recent movement changes still has no problems kiting mobs. I use gust and crippling shot more then before but I still feel very safe kiting. If I miss a gust or a crippling shot there is a greater chance that they can close the gap but when that happens I enjoy trying to recover from it or if I die then I am like good fight. I get how some people hate losing that "god like" feeling when developers fix something is broken. But at the need of the day I rather have them fix these things for the long term success of the game.

 

...Except that objectively, I'm not fighting for the skills that allowed to game the game. I'm actually ok with any justified nerf. I explicitely mailed @Chris on Discord (with no answer) about the problem with Dash and Fleet Flute, months ago. I can publish a screenshot if people have doubt about that.

But this nerf just made collateral victims everywhere, with people who had already a rather weak build. Dash and Fleet flutes were broken, I didn't even see one person contest that. But my build was not. I timed every activity I had on Novia and I can tell you that even with my Sprint/BS, I was nowhere near what some other builds can perform. Even with a rather high level, I was still unable to fight a dragon when people with 20 levels less were able to.

That said, we are going away from that simple question, again :

"All speed movement bonus have been cut by half BUT people with Dash and Fleet flute are still able to perform +4/+5 bonus and more when every other will hardly reach the +2.5. So, if +4/+5 bonus are not a balance/technical issue, why some can perform that and the other are suddenly only able to reach the half of it ? The viability of one build is relative to that of the others. Dash and Fleet flute were the big issue, and everyone have to pay for it ? Let's be serious for two seconds !"

 

I would not hold my breath if I were you. Apparently 35 MPH is already breaking the game. The average speed with a horse sprinting for 1,5 miles is between 30 and 37 MPH, for your information.

Clearly one of the nerf I was waiting for about speed was focus cost changes and Dash/FF movement speed nerfs.

Now, in most game I played, speed is linked to a stamina cost. The longer you run, the more focus you use. In SotA, only the basic sprint uses this logic.

One other solution could have been to make the basic sprint easier to use (SHIFT+movement keys), a bit faster (about +4 ms) and make the skills sprint, dash, BS and the WS potion only lower the focus cost, with the light armor innate being the only real speed bonus.

But no, we have to deal with a solution without any imagination which brings as much issues as it solves. And most importantly, we are informed about that two or three days before it falls without anyone being able to give his or her opinion because, you know, Movement speeds were too fast. PERIOD.

 

There's another way to look at this really.
Everyone's effected by this, so I would think the net advantage of an archer vs. a melee would be nil -
Archer can't get away as fast, but melee also moves slower for catching them.
I was surprised to see all the 'archer' hate in this because slowing us all down seems to me that it would affect melee folks more, the ones who can't do ANYTHING unless they are stood right next to the mob (or human target, I guess). At least the archer can shoot while stuff is running away (or running toward them).

Speaking strictly from a PvE perspective, the main annoyance of this change is that it has made the most irritating part of combat - CHASING STUFF DOWN - even more irritating. Seriously, it seems like this is what I spend 90% of my time doing, and I am a magic user who has a mix of melee/ranged attacks. An archer doesn't have this pain, as all bow attacks are pretty long range and if something turns its back to you and runs off, well, so much the better. The speed nerf actually makes me MORE likely to consider archery, NOT less. You have ranged attacks, people moving slower is a good thing for you. If you're also moving slower, than its a neutral thing for you. But OH MY GOD, how great would it be to NOT HAVE TO CHASE THINGS.

I firmly hate this change, but I don't think it creates an imbalance in playstyles so much as reduces quality of life across the board.

• Delays getting places getting pulled into combat by trivial crap you have no intention of fighting
• Harder across the board for all playstyles to disengage/escape
• Harder to catch stupid mobs that make you chase them

This has made the gameplay a lot less fun.
But I think it makes it less fun for everyone.
If I had to pick a group that it makes it LESS less fun for, it would be the melee folks, not the archers - chasing stuff all day is not fun. Especially when you can be kept in a constant state of disabling shot that never seems to wear off and can be perpetually re applied.

 

Not everyons is affected by this. Only the movement speed bonus are cut by half. Those who rely heavily on those bonus for their survavibility have taken the hit, especially those who uses the worst bonus. Those who had the best movement speed bonus still have such bonus that it won't be a serious problem for them. And those who don't use those bonus won't feel any change. Not to mention that, in the mean time, you still have things like Body Slam and Engage Opponents.

Therefore, there is a balance change here as long as not everyone is impacted the same way, and I could probably demonstrate the imbalance thing with repeating the numerous posts I made about this. But if you are really curious, you will go read those by yourself, especially here : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...top-worrying-and-love-the-power-creep.127499/

And yes, archery has no problem with the speed nerf, except when the archer needs to maintain a distance with the target. The problem is with light armor. That's why I think I always said light or light armor archers, when mentioning my case.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I don't rely on speed for survivability as such, but I rely on it for quality of life. I DEFINITELY feel a change, both in the irritation of trying to run through a scene trying to get somplace and getting slowed down because I'm hit by some low lvl crap that it isn't even worth my time to turn around and 1-shot, because that would still put me in combat which would still slow me down. Its now harder to close the gap when having to chase things around that consistently keep me in a 'slowed' debuffed state already so they can shoot me.

Yes, there's engage opponent - which anyone can use to close distance, but that hasn't changed. Its range is often insufficient, and you kinda slow down a bit on arrival, and by the time you can use another glyph, the thing you were chasing is out of range. Not really helpful. There's also blink to either get closer or further away. But cooldown on that got increased a lot too, so less useful than before and assumes you've not got high fizzle on it which, well, isn't gonna be for everyone.

Body Slam assumes you're wearing heavy armor and that you want to take the durability hit for a short stun that might let you get a couple hits in - I personally don't.

There's a lot of ways to mitigate chasing things, but most of them (stuns, etc.) requires that you actually catch them first, and don't last long enough to be meaningful unless you're going to kill whatever it is in a couple of hits. Also these things are not really reliable even at high skill levels. There's also a lot of ways to mitigate things catching YOU - like disabling shot, ice arrow, ice field, root, etc. None of that functionality has changed. I still think from a PvE perspective there's plenty of ways to stop a target approaching you so you can fill it with arrows. And 'hit and run' mobs have plenty of ways to slow players down. Having ranged attacks is still the best mitigation for this and I honestly think this change makes archery MORE appealing, NOT less. Even with the speed decreases from buffs you're still fast enough to be able to kite things should the need for kiting things arise.

I'll reiterate that I'm not happy about this change, but I don't see it as "the end of the world" for archery. If anything, I think it gives archery a lot more appeal from a quality of life / enjoyment of combat perspective. I appreciate that for PvP this is going to be a different situation - and I expect that PvP considerations is probably at least in part an inspiration for this change. But basically, everyone's speed rates are reduced so the person running and the person chasing are suffering the same disadvantage.

 

Good for you, but obviously, you didn't read my post (or you didn't see the last edit).

And again, yes, heavy armor archers have probably been a bit upgraded with those changes. But please, don't talk for me about light armor archers. There are many things you didn't take in account.

 

seriously though, the change affected everyone so its not really a nerf, there is no single way that you can say that this ruined your playstyle, you clearly just need to "ADJUST" to the changes, there will be more.... the game may have gotten a bit harder because you cant juke in an out of cover as much, this is a boon to archers (in pvp) especially when archers have the deadliest snare in the game....
The change was clearly needed and it shouldnt really ruin anything, its just aggravating to get used to changes like this because we are all so used to what we had before. I would even welcome a bigger more brutal slow down, just for ping issues, and it still shouldnt be a problem especially when it is accross the board.

 

I already posted many demonstrations that give substance to my opinion. and you come here, just throwing your own certainties, without even taking the time to study every aspect of the situation.

Everyone is cut by half so everyone lost the same thing ? It's a very crude way of summarizing what just happened. And not the most intelligent one, sorry.

Again, nobody answered my question.

 

I read, and you mostly dont make any sense.
What question....

 

I missed the last edit.

I agree with you on light armor being less useful, but I don't think light armor users suffer more -from this nerf specifically.
I think the problem is more just that light armor is in generally, underwhelming. But that's my opinion. If they put some int/dex passives in there I'd switch tomorrow but as is there's very little benefit in the tree (for my build, anyway).

Light armor wearer still have sprint, so it is not as fast now - heavy armor wearers have no sprint.
Light armor wearer can cast dash - heavy armor wearers with weapon will struggle to even use dash due to fizzle.
So, there's still zerker stance, wolf speed potions, fleet flute....
But because you're limited to TWO movement effects, light armor wearers still have 2 good options that don't require artifacts, consumables, or resistance penalties, so...

I get that you're relying on kiting to survive, and that your armor doesn't offer a lot of damage mitigation so you need that distance.
But as you move slower, so too, do your targets. Its a zero-sum game.
For PvE, well, even with the reduction, I can still outrun stuff...

But honestly, Ribald, at the end of the day....this crap happens. I've had to completely re-think my character from the ground up probably a dozen times, due to changes in functionality (nerfs), fixes (nerfs) and direction changes (nerfs) since persistence. I've been 5 different flavors of mage, an archer, a swordswoman, a bludgeoner more than once, and every variant in between to find the most comfortable/efficient way for me to clear pesky mobs out of the way so I can get to those tasty cottonbushes. I've been utterly demoralized to the point of rage quit by some very baffling balance decisions, but once I spend a week playing some crappy generic other MMO I come back and go back to the drawing board and find something else that works. You know that we have crafters on standby ready to help with any gear needs you may require to try new directions and I'm always willing to be a punching bag if you need to test things against a player.

 

The red bit seems very sensible to me and maybe it should be explored? I read it and what you said just felt right. Looking at the discussions on the knock-on impacts of the current speed tweak approach, an adjustment via Focus seems a sensible idea, at least on the surface, maybe there is another series of knock-on's there, but worth some thought? Why not allow Archers (well, light armoured, non magic focused builds) to lose Focus much more slowly than the heavies, after all they are not dragging around a body-encasing tin can and swinging a 4lb longsword... Also, Archers/Hunters/ Rangers tend to be be perceived to be more lithe and athletic anyway, Mages, wearing cloth, should have few Focus issues from movement.

So this made me think about ... Focus and Stamina?..

Am I right thinking base Focus stats are only modified by Intelligence and Gear? I understand that the 'Potion of Stamina' reduces focus drain, but just for sprinting. Obviously we have Focus potions for casting... So TO ME, Focus seems to be a multi purpose Stat - it is both what many games refer to as 'Mana' but also to equates, like you say to 'Stamina', which is often a base stat as well.

Humour me.. if Stamina were a base Stat of its own (after all we have potions for it), or perhaps more simply, Archers have innate Stam abilities, for sprinting Focus costs such that they don't drain it as fast as the rest of us (including Mages?) when sprinting, then Archers/Rangers could at least have a Build development path to help them address these speed issues.

It seems frustrating that Focus, which is strongly tied to casting, can't have a variable for how it is consumed for the athletic activities (speed, sprinting, swinging or drawing weps..) of certain classes, or a variable depending on armour class (weight). I think the Devs must have such a variable in their code, as the Potion of Stamina works only on reducing Focus drain for sprinting (I think).

I won't comment on the grumbles at the end as its time we were nice to each other again

 

While it does not really impact me personally anymore (Switched to heavy armor and polearm now) maybe make crossbows lower range, higher base damage, maybe some armor reducting for the target, longbows longer range more str dependant on damage (as planned) and in very high level outperforming crossbows.

That would feel natural, and maybe do it in a way that makes an new build viable, short ranged crossbow wearing plate.

I know that it sounds complicated (and probably is) but in reality crossbows are the shortranged, powerfull weapon, while longbows take immense more skill and str to use but are more precise over long distance, so to say the sniper weapon of the two.

So people could use crossbow without investing that much points into them while people who really want to put effort into bows choose the longbow, but need to invest heavily, but then shine compared to the crossbow.

 

Bows absolute rely on str
The whole concept is that you pull back a string = str
dex would be accuracy.

If you want to do it "realistic" Str and dex are booth 50% of the equation, you can have as much dex as you want, without strength your arrow does not have the oomph.

 

Sprint struggles to offer 1.25 ms bonus when charged with 125 Acrobatics.

First, fizzle with chain is absolutely not high for Dash (at least when not moving). Secondly, it's precisely the problem : Dash still grants the biggest bonus and when you don't want to use it, you are probably the most impacted with the nerf.

Excuse me ? Two good options ? Which one ? I didn't see those. If you have read the post I linked, you would see how this change completely removed many end game content from my reach when other people with lower or equal level could easily outperform it faster than me even before this change.

Well, not to mention the archers and mages firing at me when I struggle to get cover, I already showed that it's not a zero-sum game.

Again, nobody answered that :

For you, maybe. Not for me anymore, I think.

As I did, sometimes.

But you have to understand a point here. I'm not rage quiting. I'm quiting because I've no fun anymore. And because I doubt that a game where the fun is removed without any reason has a bright future waiting for it, cash spending is over for me.

 

The speed changes were about "PING". None of this solves any of it. People were moving TOO fast. Problem was that it took us all millions of exp for the devs to realize it. Now we all face the consequences.