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New Player Feedback - Legitimate

Discussion in 'Release 52 Feedback Forum' started by Caveloot.com Owner, Apr 1, 2018.

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  1. Duffrey Blake

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    I can confirm that and would love to see this tweaked a bit as well.
     
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  2. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    While I understand this, you and I are significantly older than the current, and lets face it, much more numerous gaming generation... the ones who WON'T wait ten hours to try and figure out a simple core gaming mechanic. Not MASTER, but FIGURE OUT. They will use the free trial, get frustrated all to hell by the bad design of this mechanic, and stop playing, never having bought the game in the first place.

    and while I like the Isle of Storms...

    That book was a lazy, heavy handed way to say "See, we have a tutorial!" without including what players have come to expect in both offline and online games since the launch of WoW a little over 13 years ago.

    Also... what happens JUST before you get to the book? You get a message flashing in your screen inexplicably telling you to slap the spacebar to jump. Not how to jump in detail... just telling you to hit that button to jump. When I suggested in person that while I loved the look, feel and concept of the Isle, it needed some more depth to acclimate a new player to the controls of the game, you should have seen the lights switch off in the eyes! They added to the scene, but it needed something more than slapping a book onto a pedastal and telling you to RTFM.
     
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  3. Ryan Doge

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    Oh yes, the expectation for the game to tell you everything but still make it fun. My understanding is that developers had to start building in tutorials because players would never read the manuals but then complain they didn't understand things.

    A comparison to WoW? Really? Should they add big yellow quest markers because players have come to expect them?

    People advertise the game as it will not hold your hand but then players complain they don't know how to do anything and say they should have a better tutorial. So, you want the devs to spend resources creating an extensive tutorial you're forced to do because you can't be bothered to read a manual or even just look in the options for the controls? I'm sure if they had a step by step tutorial people would complain it's long and boring and they just want to get to playing the game. This is so often said about tutorials.

    We expect there to be written documentation of how to play a game but somehow also expect an interactive tutorial so we can ignore the written instructions.

    If you won't learn even the basics unless they're force fed to you, are you sure you're using the right mindset to play an exploration and story focused game?
     
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  4. Deadly Habit

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    Yes heaven forbid the game is made more accessible for new players and mimics aspects of one of, if not the most successful MMOs to date.
     
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  5. MrBlight

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    I disagree.

    It means that maybe theres not enough draw from other factors to look past said little flaw.

    I enjoyed aspects of game.. but not enough to offset the bad PvP and lack of GVG. Maybe the GvG isnt enough an issue for you to think someone should quit, but i look at it like theres not enough for me to overlook it.
     
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  6. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    First of all, yes, a comparison to WoW, because they were the first ones to start doing that right. Note I said START. And because they were so successful, what they put in place has shaped the industry, overtly and subtly, for damn near a decade and a half.

    As for floating punctuation, I'm sorry, they don't have big yellow exclamation points over their heads. No... instead they have blue icons in the compass to draw you straight to them, and when you get to them, in most cases, they wave, blare YOOHOO, sparkle (yes, I know that can be turned off), and point to their own faces. I think I would prefer the exclamation points...

    Every game needs to hold your hand, to an extent, because over the last decade or so, publishers have increasingly eschewed printing manuals with the physical game, initially to save costs and increase profit, but later on when digital delivery became more prevalent, because there wouldn't BE a physical game. Hence, there needs to be something in the game that shows you the ropes in terms of basic interface usage and navigation within the game. We aren't talking about a long, drawn out, boring tutorial, but when it came to the jump mechanic, how cheap, and cheesy, is it to have a blob of text leap out at you telling you to jump for no good reason at all, when a couple of small obstacles in your way, that quickly and efficiently give you an IN GAME REASON to learn how to jump, and how to charge your jump. The difference? One is ridiculously out of place and awkward, while the second has a reason to exist and gives you an example of how to use it. There's your long, drawn out tutorial on how to jump.

    As for that book, instead of another "what the hell would this be doing here" object, perhaps that spot could have the book, and a small area that would introduce you to the things discussed in the book, just beyond. When you reach the book, you have a couple of options: take the book, continue into the small tutorial area beyond it, or both and you walk away with the book as a reference for later.

    Two simple steps, a minimal amount of development time (beyond what had already been devoted to create the Isle in the first place), and the entire new player experience would DRAW players into the game rather than let them quit in frustration later.

    This isn't about being force-fed basics, it is what the entire industry has established as a bare minimum for introductory game play, and thus has shaped player expectations for the same. I have zero problem figuring out how to play a game, due to my own gaming experience dating back to the 5-1/4 floppy days. But I also have four children who are avid gamers ranging from 16 to 23, and I have heard the problems mentioned in the OP come out of all of their mouths at one time or another as reasons why they will not be joining me here
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  7. Ryan Doge

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    Heaven forbid the game challenge players...

    Is a WoW clone what we are here for? Is accessibility the only goal and to just get players addicted to a progression system and tease them with rewards like a slot machine? Anybody can pull a lever and enjoy the flashing lights and sounds. Do we really measure success only by how much a game profited or by player count or is it by how enjoyed it was?

    I'm not trying to say WoW players don't enjoy what their doing but what value or depth does that joy have. (Slot Machine)

    I played WoW for a few months and felt like I was just passively doing the same as any other player before me and made to feel like I was wasting my time if I didn't follow a level guide just going from ! to ! to !
    I'm sure the story-line of Warcraft is fine but it being an existing franchise, Blizzard fandom and ease is what I believe pushed WoW to mass popularity.
    It's actually a similar formula for the success of UO but with challenging, memorable and rewarding game-play. ;)

    I want what this game is intended to offer.
     
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  8. Deadly Habit

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    What do you call the blue sparkle indicators on the compass for quests? That is a more modern RPG aspect and hand holding. I've never played WoW personally, nor had a desire to, but know that the NUE is a key aspect to retaining players.

    Some simple video introductions from the devs into how the systems work would go a long way and dispel some of the frustration leading to people quitting early on.
     
  9. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    You honestly did not just say that a game that pings you every time you gain a skill point, and is driven beginning to end by RNG, and where everything you do to produce something involves pushing a button, is NOT using slot machine gameplay?
     
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  10. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    One thing I need to say, to be clear:

    I do actually love this game, and have enjoyed a lot of things about it since launch. I argue about things like this because we need the newer generations of players to enjoy it too, so that we can see episodes 2, 3, 4 and 5. I argue because I currently barely see episode 2 on the horizon, and that sight gets dimmer every day.
     
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  11. Bubonic

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    All feedback is legitimate. Unless you consider the playerbase to not be legitimate. Which seems silly.
     
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  12. Deadly Habit

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    Same way I feel. I want this game to succeed and retain new players so there doesn't have to be more crowdfunding for the next episodes which is why I think NUE needs to be addressed as the current experience is lacking.

    In spite of my criticisms there are things that keep me hooked to this game and I'd like new players to have the same experience.
     
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  13. Ryan Doge

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    That's a nice "gotcha" try but I do play this game.

    The blue markers are not always exact or even there for every part of a quest and I thought they were not part of the intended design but added because of complaints to increase "accessibility". I guess enough players didn't understand how to follow directions, use a map and compass or just explore. Fortunately, I just remembered there's an option to turn this all off. Even removes the sparkly effect on the waving. I actually think just the waving/pointing is a so simple it's genius method.

    Your statements about manuals is simply misinformation. I wouldn't waste my time trying to find a game that doesn't have a digital manual available within the game or online. I rather developers not waste time with interactive instruction and some would even say they are awkward and out of place. I would even have them remove the text telling you to jump.

    Where does this tutorial end? Surely not a jumping? Does it cover everything in the book? If it's paced out, when will it interrupt your play? Will it have the helpful tips for new players or explain Hospitallers and the player created resources? Hotkeys and chat commands? At what point should you to look at the manual or should the tutorial be good enough that you only need it if you forget something? Sure you could say, "Oh, just a tutorial of the basics would be fine." but at the end should it just say "Now, RTFM"

    For this tutorial to be good enough what would this "minimal amount of development time" be?

    The industry has compensated for the shortcomings of lazy gamers so they can avoid negative reviews and turn a profit. My understanding of gaming in the past was that reading the manual was not only necessary throughout the game but was a fun part of the experience. We definitely have moved away from illustrated and story filled manuals but the need to learn about a game before you can effectively experience or judge it has not changed.

    When I have children I will teach them how important it is to seek knowledge and learn how to play so you can play well and as it was intended to be played. If they or anyone has a basic question about a new game, the first thing I would ask is if they read the manual.

    I basically find this thinking that we must do what other modern MMOs do because they're "successful" is disrespectful to the design of UO. Making it seem like their design decisions were wrong and they just didn't know better.
     
  14. Ryan Doge

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    It's a slot machine because it takes no meaningful effort, thought or decision making. Anyone can do it and they all get basically the same experience out of it. Tell me how deck building and skill variety is the same as a class based system where everyone of that class plays the same and seeks out the same rare drop items from enemies that fit their class?

    I'm not saying it's not addicting. I just feel like I'm actually deciding how I want to interact with the game to reach certain outcomes.
     
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  15. Sir Leonard

    Sir Leonard Localization Team

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    Hmm, maybe i am already used to this, as i messed around with several kinds of MMOs, each having it's peculiarities, but i don't see as an issue, since it has a purpose: holding space "charges" your jump. The more you hold, the largest the charge. I got used prety quickly to it. I know some people have some difficulty learning, but at least speaking for me, i liked the challenge. :D

    As to tab based I don't see issues as a melee class. It just hits the first mob in front of me. Ranged may have issues, but then I use "target on click"... and actually prefer this method over pressing tab over and over.... more simplistic.

    As for not being able to look around in combat, i often do this... right click, hold, move mouse.

    The others are small tweaks, but i agree that some options could be defaulted (as the zone chat).
     
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  16. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    The reason that they are there at all, whether you can turn off the blue sparkle or not, doesn't mitigate the fact that it IS there, panders to exactly what you disliked about WoW, and doesn't give you a "by" for using a bad example. Personally, I don't mind the wave... just get rid of the badly voiced/recorded yoohoo and the pointing to the face.

    And yet, here you are, in a game where they didn't even have a true manual until a short while ago, and certainly not when the game was available to the general public as a persistent world.

    Which was essentially said here:

    As "small" indicates that what I feel would need to be covered could be covered fairly quickly... and that afterwards, they could RTFM, if needed.

    I have missed that part of gaming for quite some time, where manuals breathed life into the game rather than simply giving you nuts and bolts, and hint manuals were more than lists of things to get and rules on how to beat the boss.

    How you feel about what criteria are valid for judging a game is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the criteria described in the OP ARE what new players are using to decide this game is worth their time, and most are voting no.

    That's very admirable... to suggest something less was done by making this statement, is not.

    Please stop holding out UO as the Grail of Gaming, because even it was changed to incorporate a lot of things that later games made the standard. It is an example of something that was great for its time, but primarily because it was a "first", and managed to get some things right quite by accident.
     
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  17. Ryan Doge

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    I feel unable to consider this kind of feedback legitimate
    Is this literally an attempt at an out of context quote?
    Like seriously why did you quote just part of my statement?
    I would say it was to make your unrealistically positive comment seem like you're a good guy cutting me down.

    Is it really true that any criticism of the game or anything ever gets equally useful or productive?
    How legitimate is the feedback that the game looks like it's for PlayStation 2 or that it's just P2W or even the other day someone on Discord spamming something that was like "THISGAMESUCKSTHISGAMESUCKSTHISGAMESUCKS"

    This feedback is essentially saying what many have said "The game asks players to read the manual and they don't care enough about the game to learn the basics of how it's played so can it just show them how to do everything in this deep and complex game but do it like really quick and make it fun. Also, I don't care how much more it costs you to do it."

    The game told you to read the manual and you didn't. Then, you complain you don't know how or what you could do so you might say the game is bad or you just continue to be ignorant of the features of the game.
     
  18. Gix

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    You assume that the game does a good enough job to PROVIDE said directions to follow in the first place; it does not.

    When the game takes player knowledge for granted is where it starts to fall apart. It's no wonder people play with a cloth map or the GPS map because, otherwise, people wouldn't know where places would be; the NPCs aren't equipped to give you proper directions.

    ... and if one does and it's still an intuitive mess, what then?

    It really doesn't matter what the documents or tutorials say; what really matters if whenever or not it's intuitive to play; it is not. Then the other thing you, as a designer, need to worry about is whenever or not the action is feels good. Jumping does not feel good.

    The game is inconsistent. It will sometimes provide a quest markers while other times it will not. It'll sometimes display text on your screen to tell you specific things ("you hear/see this or that") and other times it will not. etc...

    That you managed to overcome this hurdle does not magically invalidate the issues. Redirecting the game's issue to other players does not fix the problem or do you honestly believe that the game is merely "misunderstood" (especially by backers that were keen on getting a new Ultima-style game as advertised)? I feel unable to consider the "I don't have a problem" as a legitimate argument.
     
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  19. Ryan Doge

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    Yes, I don't like it and I don't believe it is was part of the original design. I feel like the devs have been forced into making additions like this because some people have been so adamant that the game needs to pander to these modern gamers and their expectations.

    I'm not sure how long this has been available, but I would think someone with a question would first try clicking the large ? that highlights "Help"
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z-svq1OvcZwViqGxFCKdjH3NCn2LTfLuGny5qaAqjTM/pub

    I find it shameful that gamers make such rash and ignorant judgments that lead to them discouraging others to play a game.

    I believe you're trying to say that it is not admirable of me to question if someone has used the tools they are given to learn about the game before they resort to putting the burden on another (that has used the tools) to recite it to them. I read the manual but they don't want to so I have to basically read it back to them from memory? We might as well both sit and read it.

    This just seems far too ironic since so many (including you) have been holding out WoW as the game that did it "right" and is most "successful" and how SotA should be incorporating elements from it. I thought the intent was this game would be like the Ultimas/UO with modern graphics.

    Also, I hope people have not forgotten that this game is also for people that only want the offline experience and I think these things that modern MMO players think they should expect would be inappropriate in offline. Even if these features were off by default, development resources were spent.

    I honestly do believe that so much of this game is misunderstood due to plain ignorance. I used the tools that were given to me and I have not had the issues people are experiencing. I thought about what I wanted to do and the information is there for me to learn about it.

    I just can't agree with the complaints about intuitiveness and game feel. Also, the jumping feels like one of the best simulated jumping systems I've experienced. Do people really expect to be bunny hopping like so many other games? I think there is an intended delay on jumping after jumping. Besides, why do people care so much about jumping?

    If you really need the quest markers, then this may not be for you. The text on screen is just flavor text for added aesthetic. Nothing has felt like a hurdle.

    I just don't understand how "I don't have a problem" is not considered a legit argument but "I have a problem even though I didn't use the tools the person without a problem used" legit.

    I am trying to be a live streamer of this game and I watch other streamers. The few I've seen play from the start don't read the manual and go on to ask basic questions and act as if the New Player Handbook never entered their possession. So many are clueless until someone holds their hand and then often misinformation gets spread to and from chat or players in-game. I understand people want to be helpful but we're all doing a disservice to each other by not expecting that we should read the Handbook.

    I feel embarrassed to be associated with these lazy gamers that tend to blame the game for their ignorance.
    If you're not being willing to read even the basic instructions of a game you're being disrespectful to everyone that made it.
     
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  20. Koldar

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    Good assessment Stile. I agree with almost the entire OP. I've been around since the beginning and have provided much of this same feedback over the years. Will they ever listen to (un)popular opinion?
     
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