Not a big fan of the HEX system overhead map

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brink1123, May 24, 2014.

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  1. tamino

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    @redfish,

    You do realize Portalarium plans to artificially cap the number of lots in this game to make them valuable in real-world currency to keep driving their business model, right?

    That is, assuming the market doesn't crash because the game ends up not being interesting enough for people.

    Also, there's only 1 opportunity to claim a particular lot across the entire game, unlike UO which had several unique servers where players had the opportunity to claim the same particular location even if it was taken on another server. The prime real estate will be taken almost instantly. Everyone else will be left with real estate that doesn't give the benefits of passers by, scenery or proximity to hotspots. It will not be like inhabiting a living, breathing world.

    I will dare to say that real estate in this game will be even more scarce than in UO, and that is by design.
     
  2. redfish

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    @tamino,

    Yea its going to be capped, but I believe they plan to increase the cap if the server population vastly increases, so home owners remain a certain % of players. They're going to put in player-run towns, etc...
     
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  3. tamino

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    No, I think what you're not understanding is this has nothing to do with whether or not you have an extra layer that shows everything at a different scale or not (in other words, a dual-scale map).

    You can just as easily add an area by linking zones or change an existing area without the dual-scale map. Actually, it's cheaper to do it without the dual-scale map, because you don't have to make the extra art or functionality of said dual-scale map.

    We could argue this to insanity but I say we agree to disagree.
     
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  4. Gubbles

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    The dev team did say some percentage of lots will be available for players that are interested in purchasing with in game currency. Honestly, I'm not sure what the problem is here. The game isn't being developed in a vacuum; the company needs to pay its employees if there is to be any hope of continued support. The business model they've chosen seems like a good choice to me.
     
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  5. Furious Farmer

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    If you want a single scale map, then find some way to donate $10-20 million. That is how much it will cost to switch to a single scale map. SotA does not have anywhere near the budget of Everquest or WOW when they were being developed. You also have to remember SotA is not a true MMO, it is a single player game with with the option of being a large scale multi-player game. So yes, the dual scale map is being implemented because of budget restrictions. Will it kill the game? In my opinion, no. As long as the core game is fun, the map system will not matter.
     
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  6. tamino

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    @Furious Farmer, actually it will cost more to develop the dual-scale system than it does a single-scale system, by virtue of the fact that you have to create two different layers to the game experience instead of one, and Darkstarr recently stated re-implementing the 3D overworld is going to cost them extra development time which will push back other features in this thread.

    They've already got a single-scale game experience which could be linked together by zone transitions, like EverQuest was. No extra work needs to be done by going single-scale. In fact, it's less work.
     
  7. tamino

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    The point I was making is this game will have even less housing lots than UO which people were complaining didn't have enough room for housing. Prime real-estate will be extremely rare because of the housing persistence across all instances of the world.

    I doubt Portalarium will go against their business model by making housing lots ubiquitous in SotA. It's by their design real estate will carry a high value because of its relative scarcity.

    Even if they were to make as many lots as there were players, most of those lots will be located in instances no one but your immediate neighbors will care about and therefore you won't really get the full experience from your housing on those lots.
     
  8. Ravenclaw [BEAR]

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    I am the type of player that loves a single layer, let me run all over the world in real time, kind of guy BUT I think that this dual scale map idea could really work once they have increased the type of hexes available to explore. Right now there is only about 8 or so that is repeated over and over which becomes very boring very quick. Imagine though 40 or 50 types of mountain terrains and the same amount for swamps, fields, forest, lake, etc... Every time you entered a hex you'd never know what to expect. Then the game takes on a whole new light. Some hexes are related to quests and story lines, others to random exploration and what makes it even more interesting is that once the variety of hexes are in place they can easily switch them, for story line reasons making old places new again.

    In UO I must have hunted in Dastard 1000 times or more and every time it was exactly the same. Got a little boring and grinding after a while. Now imagine entering a dungeon and never knowing what to expect because things could change.

    I'm a big single map player, always have been but, I'm willing to give the dual map a shot.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  9. Sardonyx

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    Eve Online - Single persistent world with all players in the same world. There are no instances of zones (star systems in game terminology) - a system will accommodate any number of players. Some star systems (Jita) routinely have 2000 simultaneous players in them.

    Also, UO is technically instanced. A shard is made up of multiple servers each handling different geographic areas. While the map appears contiguous, server boundaries just aren't marked, though the areas are known and were often used for effect in things like PvP where one server would have a player flagged and that flagging wouldn't carry over across a server boundary for example.
     
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  10. tamino

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    @Ravenclaw,

    I hear you and I agree, but if I always know I am in a relatively tiny scene which has no real connection to anything else except through this immersion-breaking meta-game, then I will feel no sense of exploration and it just won't give the same thrill of inhabiting a living, breathing world no matter what they do with it.

    We've only got one shot at the spiritual successor to Ultima (unless you feel like waiting another 15 years), so I am still gonna be pushing for single-scale.
     
  11. Sardonyx

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    >_< is the emoji for frustration/failure.

    Sarcasm is indicated by the percontation point: βΈ®
     
  12. Kether

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    Well, actually EVE is heavily instanced. Each star system is its own instance running in its own server (albeit there is only one instance for each star system so players are not divided between mirrors). Then, most NPC quests and storylines (deadspaces, those accessed by acceleration gates) are fully instanced, with each party placed in a different copy.
    Actually, EVE would be very similar to SotA in that each star system would be equivalent to an hex and you can only travel from one to another, but there is nothing in between.

    About the dual scale system, I must say I like it, as it is very reminiscent of tabletop rpgs. The GM usually has an overland map and detailed maps of points of interests. While it's true than in a videogame a continuous map plays better, it's also true that that kind of maps ends feeling scaled down, with small cities and small forests. This allows for the feeling of a really huge world.
     
  13. Sardonyx

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    This is not correct. In Eve, star systems are allocated to and dynamically shifted between physical servers based on load.

    Also there is absolutely no instancing with missions, storylines or deadspace. Players regularly scout down and warp to people in these areas to kill/loot them or just salvage the wrecks in high security space (ak Ninja Looting.) They are spawned in random locations and if you happen to have a way to get there (probe, bookmark, or just direct flight), anyone can go to where they are occurring.

    The key take away is there one copy of star system that hosts all players and they can fully interact with all other players.

    The difference is Eve's implementation is not a dual level system. Like you said, you have to traverse the actual distance in real time through each star system. The gates move you between systems, but these are in essence just zone boundaries you'd see in other games like WoW/Everquest, etc. The void between the stars is just fluff / game fiction.
     
  14. Wagram

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    I cannot see how having 100's of 1 meta instances can make it seem like a big world no matter were you are, when you enter a town its exactly the same size as any other instanced area you enter and they consist of about 100 player lots a small town centre with a little bit of open countryside were nothing is happening. A continuous map can be expanded with patches. The instances always stay the same size with the added grind of entering and leaving one every few minutes if you are gathering resources.
     
  15. Kaisa

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    Yeah I too love a single layer map and I think in the short term it is definitely more interesting/fun. However yes overtime it can get boring because you almost always know what to expect. You know that this or that dungeon will always be the same that this or that area will always have that same mobs and the same quests. With this system they can quickly and easily change things up so like you said when entering a hex you never know exactly what to expect.
     
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  16. Joviex

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    That is a completely different idea from a single layer map, and it also defeats the entire purpose of a dual scale map.

    The overland map should indicate what to expect.

    The in hex map should expand what you expect into areas of unexpected.

    If the intent of the dual scale map was to obfuscate ad hoc changes, why have any map, it would be entirely useless. UNLESS, there was a cartographic skill or way to have players self-map. There currently is not, nor are there any known plans for said feature.

    To everyone saying that a single scale map is not easily changed: I laugh AT you.

    Just look to LOTRO or recently ESO for maps that are single scale (and dual), with an open world!!, that change; not just with new expansions (of which ESO has ZERO).

    The technology to stream a world, continuously, has been in play since EQ 1 ALPHA.

    Unity has plugins and can natively be used to stream an endless, continuous world as well. No tech, nor really any money stops that from being developed, and I would agree with whomever above, it actually COSTS MORE to do two different scales of the same map.

    The only difficulty to do something continuous, at this scale, is the backend, which they are using AWS to scale that anyway.

    Cheers.
     
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  17. Kaisa

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    You have a point the map would likely show some indicators of what is going on in a hex. Though I guess we will see when the map is actually developed. I suspect there will be some things we won't ne able to see until we actually go in the hex. However things like oh a volcanic eruption or meteor strike would be visible on the map. But like I said I guess we will see. I really personally hope somethings will require us to actually enter the hex to see what is going on.

    I did not realize it was that easy to make changes in the single scale world. Probably because in most games I have played with single scale other then maybe the occasional event or something there is rarely much if any change, until an expansion hits. WoW did have some phasing which changed an area but even then it was limited and once you completely the quest line in that area once again little to nothing really changed. In UO yes there is the occasional em event which makes some direct and visible changes to certain areas but most of the time when I go through an area its the same as the other dozens or hundreds of times I have run through it.
    Now Rift did a decent job of changing things up with their events system but even that was limited. I mean the same quests would still be in the same areas mobs were always in the same places and so on.

    I guess I will need to go back and watch the video again of why they went with dual scale. I don't think I ever watched it fully. They might explain things better. I suspect that maybe while making changes in a single layer world might not be as difficult as me and some others are claiming there is likely still more difficulty and or time involved. Otherwise if that time/difficulty involved is the exact same in a dual scale versus a single scale then I will not lie I will likely be disappointed they went with a dual scale world.
     
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  18. Mishri

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    Dual scale maps are fun and add an extra sense of vastness without requiring excessive travel times. Just the starting continent is larger than all of WoW, you really don't want to have a 1:1 world that you have to run through to get anywhere. You don't want to have to go through 80km of forest to reach the next town. Yet, with a dual scale map you can get that sense of how vast that world is and you can explore all 80km of that forest if you choose to.

    The dual scale map also has all sorts of fun extra methods for exploration, without necessitating running through every zone to reach it. so lets say you are in the hidden vale(NW), you know there is a Tuesday night even going on somewhere in the world now you have to find it. Instead of wandering every hex you travel around till you either experience a fog of war or you notice something different, a new structure, a new landmark. you enter that hex and find the event. You had to travel through half the land to find it, but it only took about 20 minutes, 5 minutes of walking, 15 minutes of random encounters, spotted a rare creature while doing that exploring.

    There are other fun scenarios that aren't nearly as much fun if you have to wander through every single area.

    PrimeRib clearly missed the point of my post by talking about instances, that wasn't what I was talking about.

    In it's current state the overworld map is not fun at all. Moving a marker around a map isn't fun. Which is why myself and others made several threads on the topic. We want the overworld map to be fun, and have adventures available on that scale as well. If the overworld map isn't a fun experience it does bring the gameplay down. However, I think the with the changes Darkstarr outlined we can have a lot of fun adventuring in both the overworld and normal scale.
     
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  19. herradam

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    I dislike the dual scale world as well, but they're not going to change it. My problem is with the abundance of artificial barriers and objects in the distance which can be viewed but not visited.

    I would much rather they switched to a biome / regional system rather than hexes. That way you can visit an expansive plains area, have the playable area reflect the size of the region, and still retain the system of separated instances.
     
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  20. Mishri

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    That's more of a level design issue. Other games have tons of areas like that, where you can see things in the distance but can't ever go to them. There is a reason for that. They don't want you to feel like you are in an enclosed bubble, where there are no landmarks off in the distance. Ideally with the level design they make the landmarks in the distance actual points. For example, in Owl's Head you see it's ringed with mountains, after you exit the town you see there are mountains all around it, so that works, except you can't enter the mountain hexes. There is also a volcano in owl's head I think there should be a volcano hex just north of owl's head we can explore. They haven't said whether or not there will be, I'd assume there will be.

    Before they had the barriers in you could go over there and see those tings, except you'd fall through the world as you exceeded the limits of the map.
     
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