Not a big fan of the HEX system overhead map

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brink1123, May 24, 2014.

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  1. Brink1123

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    hello everyone im not to sure how much I like the hex system on the map I would like to be able to walk from one side of the map to the other with out jumping into the overhead map, how will that even work with pvp if we want to run away during a fight we just leave the hex and go to the overhead map? it just seems cheesy to me. don't get me wrong the dev team has done a really good job on the rest of the game but as far as the overhead map idea goes im not a fan. being able to use the overhead map to get around cheapens the sense of wonder and adventure in exploring the world.

    I would be ok with leaving one hex to go to the next hex north south east or west of the hex I just left without going into the overhead map.
     
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  2. Mishri

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  3. NRaas

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    Strictly speaking : If you wanted to go that approach, one would need an exit to the North West, North East, East, South East, South West, and West, since each map represents a hexagonal shape.

    The devs have noted that the scenes they are building are not meant to be the full area represented by the hex on the overworld map. They are simply an interesting "scene" located somewhere within the hex area.

    My opinion is that forcing each local map to have six distinct entrances would place an unnecessary constraint on the devs creative freedom regarding making said scenes. :)
     
  4. jiirc

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    I was writing up something similar to what NRass said, and then I thought that you could theoretically get a 360 degree system to move you into the correct adjacent hex, except for 2 outlier cases, 0 and 180 degrees. But you could fudge them. However running a person from hex to hex automatically causes some tech issues that I wouldn't want to try and solve.

    But if you have strictly defined entrances and exits, NRass is correct. In SotA the missing compass points are N and S.
     
  5. PrimeRib

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    If PvP is about being king of the hill, running away means you're not on the hill any more. Feel free to do that. Whether you're fighting over a bridge, a mine, a castle, or whatever, the point is if you're not there, you cannot get whatever the goal is.
     
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  6. tamino

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    The overland map, much like the NPC conversation system, is a step backwards when many expect innovation and something new.

    There's a reason the Ultima series evolved and dropped these features altogether. Instead, SotA has been devolving and it's a recipe for disaster.

    Richard Garriot's gut was right in the first place when he was against the dual-scale map feature as suggested by elements of his team. It's become nothing but a train wreck but they're still going down the same road and it's now pushing back other more important features as you can read here.

    Mark my words, it will be yet another disaster.

    Ultimas were always known for pushing the envelope of what was possible at the time. As it is now, SotA is clearly not a game in the spirit of Ultima. You know, if this were a true Ultima in spirit, it would probably be a VR game, as that is where the cutting edge is right now. As it stands, it's a pale imitation of single player Ultimas 1-5, UO, WoW and EverQuest and has none of the charm of any of those games.
     
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  7. redfish

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    RG was talking about moving to a dual-scale map for Ultima 9 when it was in the early planning stages. Basically, after Ultima 8 came out and it disappointed long-time fans, he was discussing going back to Ultima's roots. So, the issue of the dual-scale map was brought up by him to get reaction from the fanbase, and it was debated by the online community at the time. Returning to dual-scale isn't a new idea brought up by the SoTA team, its something he came up with years ago.

    Essentially, the single-scale map was a cool innovation when it was developed, but there were always a lot of drawbacks to it. Ever since it was introduced, the game world shrank dramatically, and the wilderness areas became smaller and smaller. The more complex the graphics were, the more this became the case. U6 felt smaller than U5 and U7 felt smaller than U6. U8 was much smaller. U9 had shrunk the size of Britannia dramatically. And in UO this meant that housing bled into the wilderness and the amount of uninhabited land was relatively tiny. Encounters also tended to happen in predictable areas that were scripted into the game; you knew where to go to find an encounter. So contrary to what the OP is saying, the single-scale map took away from the sense of wonder and adventure as much as it added to it.

    As for the OP's other point... I don't consider PKs chasing other players unyieldingly all the way to the next town to have been a good aspect of UO anyway.
     
  8. tamino

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    In the case of SotA, Richard said he was personally against it and it took several rounds of discussion before being convinced by his team. It was in one of the dev chats.

    Ultima 9 was notorious for its tumultuous development and the end product was a buggy mess so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of bad ideas came up during the process.

    I personally believe in quality over quantity. And I've never had an issue with the size of U6 or later Ultimas. Ultima 7 was the best game in the series and small is the last word most people would use to describe it, while UO had a huge game world and the housing being spread all throughout the forest was not a result of size limitations brought on by dual-scale vs. single-scale but by unexpected demand for the feature at the time and a failure of the in-game economy to constrain wealth propogation. In fact, many people consider the unrestricted building capabilities in UO to be a plus and this lead to the formation of player-run towns with communities and unique local culture, for instance.

    UO's housing feature is partly responsible for its longevity and no game since has had such a compelling housing implementation, including SotA.

    SotA's instancing of towns and linking them together with a separate, immersion-breaking game experience simply does not give the same sense of presence within a living, breathing world like you have in a game like UO.

    I think you're describing "griefing," and PK is a derogatory term for the players who engage in that sort of play, but not all PvP has to create this sort of negative experience. I've written some comments on this subject here.
     
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  9. redfish

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    I don't know what RG said in the dev chats or what was the case in the development for this particular game, but he did come up with the idea before. Many people on the forums know this firsthand and can attest to it.

    I don't think U7 was the best game in the series in every way. It was the best in certain ways. It was a horrible turn in certain ways.. for example: combat sucked. The world did feel much smaller. It really didn't take that long to travel from city to city, and you had a sense that you knew every nook and cranny. Travel from Trinsic to Paws was short, Paws to Britain non-existent, Britain to Cove short, Cove to Minoc short. UO to me still did feel overcrowded.

    Not really describing griefing, I'm describing legitimate game behavior.. which was chasing targets of a fight. Whether griefing or not though, those type of chases really weren't a good, or realistic, part of PvP. At any rate, I still expect we'll see some type of ability to pursue players in the game. In the release product, you should be able to see some other players travelling on the overland map. That defines the contraband scenario, for instance: you see the player who's carrying contraband. I'm sure it will be a factor in things like guild warfare and in other PvP scenarios.
     
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  10. Mishri

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    I'm pretty sure you are mistaken, the only thing I heard RG had to be convinced of was the combat system. And there was no mention of how many discussions it required.


    How would doing what every other MMORPG does (1 scale world) be innovative and new? Every other game does it that way. This dual scale world is unique for MMORPGs. There are tons of games out there now that still use dual scale maps that are well liked, sell well, and get good reviews. They happen to be single player games. So this is definitely a new direction for an MMORPG and I'm excited to see the features that brings to this style of game.
     
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  11. mike11

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    They are trying to shake down what needs to happen. I think they need to keep it simple so that they can add enough gameplay features and depth so that the game overall will benefit from good design.

    They need to figure out how everything will come together in the game and how things will be post-story arc and all that. It is coming, now is the time to work out the kinks and tell them what you think (if you have a good idea).

    Richard says again and again in his video's to try and make him aware of things "we" as the players see as potential issues that they might not think are issues.

    This is one of those times.
     
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  12. PrimeRib

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    Huh? All games made these days are heavily instanced, just like SotA. Some games have larger chunks but I can't think of anything since UO / Lineage2 which was all open.
     
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  13. Brink1123

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    If we can make it all one scale map why not do it that way? I cant think of any good reasons why a dual scale map would be better other than it may be easier and cheaper for the dev team...and to be frank I dont care if its harder or cost more to do it the right way. Anything worth doing is worth doing well. We all are paying hard earned money for a WELL MADE GAME not something that is time and budget friendly for the staff of sota!
     
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  14. rune_74

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    One of the major reasons they went with this is it allows them to add areas to the world with relative ease. This allows a changing world that doesn't require changing a whole map to add things in. If done correctly this could really add to the dynamics of how the game plays.
     
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  15. Brink1123

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    So I am right they are doing it this way for their ease!
     
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  16. tekkamansoul

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. rune_74

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    I'm not sure what to say to you since you seem to be one of those people that want to say they are right no matter what.


    At the end of the day this allows them easier access to the game world to add to it. If it works the way they want it too it should provide some interesting events over the years that effects larger areas of the world. Ultima 7 for instance or even UO was much harder to add an area to the already made land mass....

    Think volcanoes and meteor strikes as a start.
     
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  18. Kabalyero Kidd

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    @OP... yup... you are absolutely right... portalarium devs are lazy... >_<
     
  19. Gubbles

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    @Brink1123, I think I heard Chris say the cost to change this was prohibitive, given SotA's current funding and already chosen design. Probably mentioned in one of the URLs Mishri linked.
     
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  20. Gubbles

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    Sarcasm? It always hard to pick up on conversational cues in written text.
     
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