Online Open Role Play Mode – Open PvP and Full Loot

Definitions
Online Open Role Play-Online ORP is a mode in any game where you are open to role playing with other players and accepting their role as much as they must accept yours. It’s also known as “players as content”. Each player interacts with you as another role player and you deal with each player as just another situation in the game.
Open PvP – OPvP means anyone can attack anyone else at any time. If someone is Role Playing a murderer, you can be their next target. If someone is role playing a thief, you may be the next one they steal from.
PvP with Consequences - PvPC means if you start a fight with a fellow player, and kill that player; the game mechanics assume you are playing the role of a murderer and will react with the game system targeting you, just as a murderer would be targeted in real life. It is relentless and typically detours “griefers” because the consequences are greater than the grief caused.
Full Loot-FL is a system where you will have access to other players items on their character. A thief could steal anything he is skillful enough to not get caught stealing. A thieving murderer can take any items he wants off your corpse.
Player Killer-PK’ers are players that run around killing other players, or attempting to anyway. They are typically Role Plying a murderer, or maybe a mentally ill man that when he hears “Rabbit” loses control and starts attacking you. In many games where PK’ing is allowed, you can find griefers which are not playing a role, but simply out to ruin others fun.

I Am Not A PvP’er
First off… My fellow PvP’ers need to know what I say to those PvE’ers that want to say “You just have to be able to kill anyone you want don’t you?” It’s just not true… they like to think it is, but it’s not. I PvE, and when I’m playing an online RPG… I LIKE the fact that others around me have roles and ideas on how to play those roles of their own. I really don’t see a point in playing an Online RPG if the other player across from me can’t play it the way he wants… even if he is RPing a murderer.

For me… I have to ask them… “why are you online in a “MMO” style mode, if all you’re going to do is stand in a corner mining?” Typically it’s in a manner that doesn’t allow someone to bring an ingame event on you, if it’s being attacked, or if it’s a thief trying to take your stuff.

Online Open Role Play Mode
I hope the SotA team will have an Open Role Play mode. The ultimate point of playing an Online RPG with others is the ability to play roles together with random personalities and characters that are played by your fellow player. I see these few aggressive Anti-PvP’ers in the PvP forums just trying to infect the PvP aspect of the game and I hope the team has a clear mind to not listen to them.

For me the best online ORP was UO. Players could role play anything they wanted and the game let them. I remember someone Role Playing a flower girl! There is no flower girl skill, but you know what… they were doing it and they were there every day. I think where UO got it slightly wrong was on the Open PVP end.

In an online ORP game, you will inevitably come across a PK’er. This happened in UO, they killed you and their consequences were… minimal. This attracted griefers. For online ORP to work you need to have a game that really challenges a person that is RPing a murderer.

In UO the most that would happen is you were not allowed into towns, guards in towns would attack and insta kill you. Other players could attack you without consequences. And that was about it.

I think all that should be there, but I think there should be more. I would like to suggest with this mode You include a few other things. Thinks like:

• Powerful roaming rangers that attack any murderers
• Vendors do not want to deal with PK’ers. If you want to add lore, maybe there is a law in the land that their vendor permit will be revoked and they don’t want to risk that.
• They cannot open trade windows. I would like lore with this but don’t know how you can tie that in.
• They are not allowed to transfer gold. Maybe the king of the land seizes it.
• They cannot pick up drops from other players. Goal here being that they cant make another char, buy something in the city, then give it to their PK flagged char.
• Housing owned by them doesn’t allow non PK’ers in
• Housing that is owned by a non-PK’er doesn’t allow them in.

Take some or all of those suggestions. Some of the lower bullets I have no doubt, will be controversial to people seeking to RP a murderer. These are a few of the things that I think would help encourage Role Play, and discourage griefers. Griefers have no interest in being that dedicated to their role.

Conclusion
I pledged to this game knowing what great games RG and his team have made. I pledged knowing the Open and Free worlds he creates online. And I am certainly looking forward to the next spiritual successor of those games, in both the story line and online games.
Thanks,
Tim

 

In between the somewhat loaded words and irony, there is some really good stuff here. I'm not always agreeable on the specifics of implementation, but I sympathize with the cause of limiting PKs, so that they don't become lackluster and commonplace. Specifically, I like the ranger concept and the vendor restrictions, but some of the others I found to be too limiting or exploitable (IE bullets 3-7).

 

Well, I was thinking of ways to prevent exploiting two accounts and circumventing the restrictions by using your second account to get stuff for your PK'er account. I'm open to anything that helps achieve that, so I'm fine with those not being them. Maybe by helping the murderer the second account gets their wanted level raised? Just a thought.

Ideally, an Open RP mode would make me so happy. A place for "true"(bias ofcourse) RP'ers to gather and accept the risks of that world and the rewards from the stories and experiences had from it.

 

Honestly, I sympathize with the desire for multiple characters, but I agree that the value of player accountability and singularity outweigh the more selfish interests. If Portalarium took a strong stance on the issue, they could discourage some players who would be reluctant to break rules. This would be in the form of policy and enforcement (TOS), but all the same, I feel inclined away from a command-and-control model (not that I'm for putting policing in the hands of players).

 

Good thoughts Tim , What are your thoughts on a PK'er resupplying or after death?

 

As someone who has stated on multiple occasions while I have not typically played in the PvP parts of MMO's due to the PvP player's attitudes, I am looking forward to playing primarily PvP in *THIS* game. So I guess it's ok to post, right? The PvP portion of the game directly applies to ME.

First, a clarifying question - Are you proposing the online mode known as "OPO (Open Play Online)" to be, by your definitions, OPvP?

I believe that nothing else matters until you answer that question, but I will also point out other thoughts about your ideas:

• PK's are not "typically role playing" - they like killing other players, whether it be for the challenge or the joy of ruining someones fun, doesn't matter.
• The majority of the people wanting a OPvP game have absolutely said they want it so they can just kill anyone. It's not a secret or a role.
• It doesn't matter why someone would want to stand around and mine and ignore others in an Open Play Online mode - they are entitled to do so.
• I am all for 'consequences' for the act of killing another player but my fear is that there are no mechanics that you can put in place to overcome the benefit of Full Loot.
• I believe it has already been stated and decided that 'population centers' (VTC) will be safe areas with no PvP. That can of course always change.

Personally I have come to believe that at least partial looting of people should occur in PvP, as long as PvP is always opt in, and that does not mean 'joins OPO'. I do understand and agree with the arguements of adding risk to the gameplay, but I strongly feel it has to be with the player's buy in, or it will only alienate them and cause them to look elsewhere for their fun.

 

Hey Phredicon , As I stated a Player Killer does not make one a Griefer or as you said out to ruining somoens fun, ... its more of a role,,, and let me tell you when the word gets out that someone was Pked , the anti white knights are just waiting to deliver swift and painful justice ..... when i was Dread or a Murderer I would bow and even rez people if I knew a wandering healer was in a spawn zone that would have mobs that would insta kill a newly rezed ..... In a dungeon i would gate someone close to a main town . No not once was I treated nice when I was Killed by the "good guys" , Never . and on boards it was of coarse we will grief you , its what you deserve... Well they revenged the person I killed got his stuff , and my stuff ....... and let me tell you if your not on a suicide mission a pk's death pays well .

 

@Lorimus, I have tried to be cautious about blanket painting PvP players with the 'griefer' brush, and I am well aware that for MANY PvP players it is the challenge of competing against a thinking being instead of an AI that they enjoy. Certainly, all PK's are not just going around griefing everyone around them.

That said though, it has been my personal experience, and many, many other players (as evidenced by comments on these forums, other forums, our chat and in trying to convince multiple RL friends to give this game a chance) , that while perhaps the majority of PvPers are benign there are entirely too many juvenille adolescent-acting jackholes who are not 'pretending' to be evil - they are. Whether it's because they get off on causing someone misery, or they merely like a ego boost from hearing someone get upset, they frequently behave in a way that is not just besting someone in virtual combat, it's rubbing their nose in the **** while doing it.

And that's just not fun (for sane people) and it's what is remembered most and it's why people will leave or just not play.

 

You're quite passionate on the subject, and I like that, but I don't want to speculate on PK related anti-griefing development until we know more about the game and specifically what rules will exist in OPO.

Some of these bullet points are likely on the devs minds already, but we won't know for sure what kind of gameplay reinforcement is needed to prevent griefers until we see them first hand imo. Genuine roleplaying PKs are already getting the short end of the stick in regards to social and community settings; there's no reason to push so far that PK groups lose gameplay opportunities as well.

"They shouldn't be able to transfer items or gold" is a ridiculous proposition; if anti-pks can then get an advantage through pooling wealth, then denying that advantage to pks is just in poor taste.
The whole player drop thing wouldn't work; no real PK wouldn't be willing to kill their mule to get their stuff.

Housing rules if I recall correctly was already planned to be pretty strict... tied to what the player allowed on the deed or house settings or something along those lines.
I'd honestly prefer houses didn't automatically discriminate on PK status, that reminds me of random things like vampire lore where vampires were just magically prevented from entering a home if they weren't invited. Its immersion breaking, and just outright inconvenient for players who may not want to play with just 1 side of the spectrum.

You really don't like merchants or crafters that interact with both the general community and the criminal community -huh?

I wouldnt worry about trying to make things harder for those that are going to multi-account; its a legitimate strategy to try and maximize your effectiveness online, and the smart ones will just never tell anyone about thier second account making it a long term strategy without any negative consequences... but it goes against RG's original design ideas for the game, so I just assume its a factor he's taken into account.

 

I agree with alot of things Rampage said Tim . I dont beleve we should trade away more to hope for some crumbs , but You Might have some other ideas to offset the how do we restock and such ..

 

Hmmm if theres full loot PvP i might hang out flagged for full loot pvp once in awhile if it gets me to high level or maybe. I think it would be fun to see another miner out mining or with a pack mule then just randomly one of us decides.... "ITS ALL MINE!" And decides to start swinging their pickaxe at my pack horse or something then i just bash his head in with my smith hammer. =P I guess a lot of people who are all for full loot pvp are in it for an "equal playing ground" kind of thing though, they just want the reward of looting everything their opponent has. Of course this could have been simulated in trammel just by joining a guild with someone you want to duel then putting up all the items up that your wearing as a bet that you will win and if they lose you get all their things.
So, i guess one thing i really want to know. Do people who want full loot pvp want an even playing ground? Like.. from what i hear is non consensual pvp is totally off the table. This pretty much evens the playing ground for any PvP activity. Everyone doing it is going to be all heavily armed and totally ready for battle. They are going to be all practiced up on pvp and have all the best macros and crap. Its not going to be this pre-trammel wonderland that a number of people want from what I see. The only way to bring that back is to have non consensual pvp. It has to be a world were the weak and innocent can be slaughtered by the strong once and awhile and looted. Got to admit, it sounds pretty exciting! Sometimes its really messy though, cuz when im mining and i get butchered sometimes i just quit the game for a day or two... Perhaps if there was a way to keep a person who got pked from just thinking "this sucks i quit" maybe it would work i dunno...
Either way. im not going to fight too hard to get pvp in this game in any way shape or form, but ill definitely discuss it. Im not going to fight to keep full loot pvp from happening, but..... i certainly find pvp interesting. Even though every time I try to pvp i get totally SMACKED. I really cant PvP because it takes getting real intense and hardcore. Whenever I really try to fight with another player in UO i'd always get this huge emotional rush feels like your heart is pounding and stuff. It always felt so silly im always like saying to myself, "come on dude its just a game" after loosing and i'd laugh. For me that adrenaline rush just isnt fun. Basically being challenged too much when i play a game isnt fun for me. I just like clicking the monsters till they die and collecting the gold and seeing it stack or just clicking the mountain to gather the ingots then talking to people in the game those are the funnest things for me. Im already challenged in real life with a really tough job and stuff, I dont like coming home and being challenged by another player... maybe for about 10 minutes ill try it just because im bored, but i never really put my heart in it and i just get killed the entire ten minutes and go back to just messing around gathering resources and treasures and stuff.
But hey, i always find it fun to be a spectator too! I love watching people go at it in online games. Its like getting all the fun of pvp without all the adrenaline rush that I dont like. Just sittin back and watchin the show. Even funner to see people get looted to, and shamed! I liked seeing the corpse of some people get butchered while I watch them mow people down (often im walkin round as a ghost cuz at some point i was a victim too!).
Also, im going to say something that im sure MANY people wouldnt dare say for fear of being flamed. I love to destroy players in the game that are weaker! No I dont want to make them lose GOBS and GOBS of gold, a house deed, or a ship deed. Its just fun to go into a fake world and be something your not. Being Mr. nice guy in real life gets old. Sometimes I just want to be a bully and what better way to do this than killing a NOOB in an online game? Actually quite often the noob might kill me haha sounds pathetic i know. Not interested in totally destroying their gaming experience or destroying something they worked hard for. Just be fun to be a villain at times. Maybe to be able to pilot one of the monsters in the game like one of the lich lords or dragons. Just be fun to.... y'know? Pick on another weaker player a little bit? >=-) Again, this feature doesnt have to be available, and ill use the same little phrase ive used in many other posts: Im just brainstorming. Im not pushing for this idea.
Really, ive talked about alternatives that would satisfy this evil urge just as good in other threads ive started one is called :Evil non-pvp player. Another thread ive started that talks about an alternative to this is titled: NPC sheep (or something like that). Ive also proposed ideas such as having a "full loot pvp" where you go to an area that is dangerous and full of non consensual pvp... or perhaps just keep the whole world open pvp but you never lose anything for dieing but there IS random loot spawned on your corpse for your enemy to pick off your corpse. The details on what would spawn on a player's corpse I havent worked out yet. But what if there were items on the body that were based on like the age of the account of the person you slaughter and the skill level of the individual. You might have to take into consideration that people might exploit this as well, especially if they had two accounts or something.
Anyway, im at 1000 words im gonna turn off my rant mode for a bit! What do yall think?

 

The only thing Tim proposes here that I am not ok with is his continuing paranoia vis a vis "anti-PvPers", and his seeming association with Role Playing versus PvP. As I am a role player (just got back from a nine hour session of tabletop, in fact), and actively support it, I gotta say that I don't see ANY connection between encouraging people to play a role for the purpose of personal and group entertainment and letting players randomly murder each other. I just don't see them as linked. Yes certain events cannot play out without PvP flags, but a role player can CHOOSE to set their flag, and allow random murderers to role play stabbing them to death. Or not. I think that as long as the concept of Role Playing in the game is not inextricably linked to the concepts of OPvP and FL, this setup is fine.

 

I joined up just now, I read through some material at this site via google indexing and it caught my interest. PvP is of particular concern for me and how it is handled determines if I am interested in the game or not. There was also something on google which caught my eye which I've never heard of for PvP, so after doing some research on the term and this forum I've come up with some funny banners for us Pick them up here: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pvp-banners.3382/

 

I'm not sure some of your proposals mesh up with your objective:

- No way to transfer things from a non-PK to a PK means that paying off the PK is impossible, thus making robbery impossible; the PK will always have to kill the other character in order to get anything. I don't think this is your objective.
- That block won't prevent transferring things from a non-PK to a PK, though, as long as the non-PK character is willing to die and the PK is willing to kill. They just have to go somewhere remote (to avoid interference by other players or NPCs) and have the PK kill the non-PK and loot him.

BTW, I don't have anything against such a game mode existing. I just have (very strong) issues with players that are not interested in it being forced into such a mode, which includes any attempt to remove the PvE version of OPO and have PvE players forced to use the PvP one in order to meet new players.

 

Assuming they will have to find a "healer" or spend some time getting to some other resurrection point, I dont have a problem with it. They should be able to go to their house and do so. It would be really kewl if they added the ability to bury chests for non-home owners.

I think I should clarify my last few bullet points in that thread. I've heard a lot of concern about PK'ers using secondary’s to give themselves stuff they are banned from... but my bullets conflict with online ORP.

After thining about it... I think anyone giving or dropping items for PK'ers to pick up... could have their wanted level increased. That could solve the issue of exploiting the "open'ness" that ORP would provide.

I think it would be nice to eliminate the ability to exploit the mode, but that is an idealistic dream that could do more harm to the mode than good.

On your OPO mode question... After my experiences with the horrible attitudes(particularly of the anti-pvpers) I am completely against an OPO mode at this imediate point. But lets not get off subject on ORP.

I'm really baffled by your other bullets. They are either off topic, or they ignore that I addressed them in the OP.

Bullet Number:
I talk in depth about this issue if you read the OP.
Again, discussing online ORP mode here. ORP, by definition, would need to allow players to do this.
I dont understand what you mean here.
Yes, and as I said in the OP, I agree with that. In ORP you would have the situation of guards killing anyone attacking others. Or are you objecting to that?

So after getting to the end of your post... it seems you are hung up on talking about OPO. I have kindly asked people to stay on topic. Im not sure if you didn’t read the OP or just have a hard time understanding what I have written. In either case, I think you asked for a little clarification on and online ORP mode. But most of it was about OPO, which I have no interest in discussing.

I’m sorry, just reading your post reply and my original post, seems like you would (and everyone involved in this thread would) be better served if you took this to an OPO thread?

If you want a Restricted Role Play mode where people can’t openly PvP... I'm fine with that... just take it to another thread please. Sorry, just confused by your post talking more about OPO than what the OP is about.

I agree with this. But the one thing I have come to realize is that griefers want their cake and to eat it too(if I got that saying right). They want to harass other players and they want to be able to run to the safety of a town. Any servers I have seen where the environment fights back... griefers are not found in the PK portion.

Unfortunately they are still there... maybe running around you in town yelling "look at me", or opening trade windows and putting ridiculas items in them to harass you. They dont want to play... they just want to grief.

I should clarify here... this post isnt about OPO... and this is not speculation... this is a request for a ingame feature. As I mention earlier in this reply post, at this point I am against OPO. Too many people acting like children about it.

I agree on all your points with regards to "anti-secondary accounts" restrictions. I'm just trying to solve the problem of it mechanically. But it might not be.

As you are pointing out(I think you are?), I would rather a non-PK be able to help a PK because it promotes another form of role play. The black market dealer.

I would easily abandon those bullets if other Open Role Players agreed with you that its more important to allow more open role play, than to try to prevent abusing multiple accounts. I really dont think the multiple accounts thing will be that bad in an ORP mode. I also think the restriction I was trying to preemptively strike, would hurt the goals of an ORP mode.

In short... I agree.

I am thinking, it sounds like a long rant that you are not into PvP? Its seems like you are contradicting yourself, you talk about the adrenalin rush from PvP and not being into it. Then talking about liking to watch it, so maybe you should be making an arena thread?

I dont know... seems like you typed a lot for me to be confused on your points. Maybe you can clarify with less?

Seems like you only come in here to troll? Dont know why you are involved in a thread about Open Role Play.

interesting... but confused about your involvement here in this thread. Basically your saying "I dont know what PvP in SotA will look like". Just from what I read. Im trying to tie it into the suggestion in the OP for an ORP mode. Sorry, just confused on this.

 

Sooooo you DON'T want OPO to be 'ORP' as you call it? Cool, great, good, we're in agreement.

Thanks

 

I'm truly sorry if you think I'm a troll, Tim, the simpler way of saying it is that I frequently disagree with you. In this case, in this thread, concerning role playing, I just point out that there is a difference between playing a role for mutual entertainment and randomly attacking each other in the woods. If the designers are planning features around what the player base wants, and one of those features concerns role play, they I want them to know that there are role players who don't think you represent them. Since you insist on representing OPvP as integral to Role Play, I speak up to defend my dissenting point of view. I regret that you feel that means trolling you.

 

I'm not all sure what is being said here but it did make me think of this.

I know at least 2 crowds of PVP now.
1. Full open PVP, kill, loot, steal whatever
2. PVP that is faction or guild based where the different sides are at war with each other (this may or may not include looting).

What this thead made me think of is breaking number one into two different types of play.

Some like the game mechanics to take care of rules in the game so everything is fair.
But I'm leaning more towards letting players take care of rules in the game. Yes which could easily be abused.
What you call it, I don't know
Open PVP - Game rules
Open PVP - Player rules

In Game Rules the rules are simple you kill loot or steal you receive your penalty.
In Player Rules many areas of the game will be controled by players who can control crime and the punishment.

How to slow down the abuse would be to:
Reward towns and players for being good.
Penalize towns and players for doing wrong.

But allowing the players to control some things in the game would keep things interesting.
Yes it would take some time and work to limit the abuse there but I think it would be worth trying a system like that out.

 

While I love the idea of a democratically controlled, player driven system of law and justice and civil behavior and common sense, I think there is a reality check due in here.

In the modern era, MOST criminal acts can be noted, followed up on, tracked down, assigned to the guilty party (we hope), and finally punished (again, we hope). This however is largely due to an extremely complex amount of preparation that we have invested for this precise purpose. We have security systems, bureaucracies, computer aided databases, and a slew of entire professions devoted to tracking and dealing with crime, they are full time jobs, and by most accounts, they aren't FUN.

I don't know about you, but I'm much more interested in seeing SotA be fun than I am in seeing it be realistic. If I have to choose between the two, I'll always choose fun.

What we have seen so far from Lord British, the Ultima games, Britannia, and the revealed content in this game suggest a much more medieval European style world, without rapid transit, without computers, and largely without paper. (Yeah, I know, spellbooks and wanted posters and personal journals, but paper really wasn't that cheap, common, or widely used)

Without the full time professions (and if we use town guards, that needs programming to guide their actions, which will lead to game rule driven justice), without the bureaucracy (cause seriously, who wants to role play a bureaucrat?), without extensive documentation and a rapid system for disseminating information, we get medieval justice.

In medieval justice, most crimes went without any kind of accusation, let alone conviction. Criminals roamed the roads for months, sometimes YEARS, unmolested by the law. False conviction of poor, undereducated peasants, as well as failure to so much as officially charge wealthy, well heeled nobles was rampant.

If we imagine ourselves, the players, enforcing justice, we would NEED a game rule control system to help us, and we should think a little bit about what that might be like. If we imagine ourselves NOT using game rule control systems, we should really admit what that would look like from the perspective of those inside the game. I'm thinking about 2nd grade recess when the teacher wasn't looking.

 

I love PvP. But for PvP to be consensual, it has to be symmetric. E.g. two cities fighting each other, both of which believe themselves to be in the right. You don’t need any kind of criminal system for this. Because players deal out their own justice. Everyone can play either good guy or bad guy at any time.

People seem to think having "criminal" rules cuts down on PKs. It doesn’t. It helps them. Because seasoned PKs have an escape route. They have an extra set of gear. They know how to bring friends and to ambush. They know when not to flag and how to trick you into getting killed by your own guards. (There are dozens of similar exploits here which have been listed over and over in other threads.) If you want a fair fight, let the “good guys” engage immediately instead of forcing them to give up any advantage.