Player Driven Economy - Portalarium's huge oversight?

These are excellent suggestions and thoughts, and we're certainly pursuing coloration variations via crafters as a valuable part of the equation... Selling recipes specifically, with an understanding that the intent would be for merchants to then sell the goods they craft with them at rates that would make the purchase of the recipe worthwhile (and yet still encourage in-game completion in the market), is surely another part we're going to be experimenting with...though of course there will still continue to be exclusive items that you might only be able to acquire through the Add-On Store... It will be good suggestive feedback like you've provided here that will help us find that perfect alchemical blend of all these things, in just the right order and amount, to help make the system we're trying to create more and more effective every release... ^_^

 

@Scottie

I for one got Autumn to do up 10 small ruins, some burnt houses and a bunch of tombstones.

They are very usable, beautiful (imo) and a very positive step for my specific scene creation in the story POT.

But like what @2112Starman mentioned, everyone being able to do everything beats the basic purpose of a player run economy.

Let's see what the future holds and the vision of the game as it moves towards full launch.

 

Ah yes! The idea of a "trophy room" of sorts where one can show off evidence of one's glorious purchases or achievements... A display method for purchased armor, clothes, weapons, and shields and such... That subject has been tossed back and forth around the office... And we certainly want to do such things, we just haven't yet had the opportunity to devote time and resources to them yet... We are working our way toward such things though, one step at a time...

 

Why thank you! Yes,...I'm often in that same camp myself,...because I actually prefer the more rustic, sometimes "beaten up" versions of things as opposed to the fancier, opulent versions I'm always tasked with making... I'd far prefer to create an in-game experience for myself filled with more "peasant-like" decor.... ^_^

 

My goodness! Look how late it's become! I'm off to bed... Thanks for letting me drop in on your lively discussions!

Scottie ^_^

 

Most importantly as a side note, this thread has shown that the Devs (@Scottie etc) are willing to take up an active stance in discussing game and design issues on a regular basis with a player base (@Autumn Willow etc) that actually cares.

I'm very energized by the interaction, and hope this stays consistent.

Onward!

 

Yes, I agree with it and have used the current pieces available to crafters to create a look for nice (in my opinion), rustic looking places for my guild.

However, after decorating the 3rd or 4th house things start to look kind of... the same. Sometimes you just want to mix things up and the for a crafter/decorator it would be to have more choices to make. Beauty is definitely subjective (that rough paving stone is really unpleasant looking!) but having more choices would be superior to having less choices. Having that right piece of furniture to complete a look etc.

Either way I look forward to having more options for crafters in the future. I hope you guys find a way to balance your needs for funds as a company and the quality of the game that you produce that'll please most of your player base (or piss off as little as possible ).

Yes, lots of ruins and burnt houses... I want some of the bigger ruins though mainly just for variations in height.

Yes, it'll also be nice if Master Crafters actually had access to more recipes than low level crafters, it'll be nice to have some differentiation for non-combat crafting. Having a more significant skill decay (an unpopular view but somewhat necessary I feel to limit how much 1 character can produce) would be another option to increase reliance on other players.

I enjoy it when I have to look for Six (our own enchanter) to get my items enchanted, or I have to see out the services of a our guild tailor to get my aeronaut outfit crafted . Talking to a player, telling him/her what I want need... essential interaction to a sandbox MMOrpg

 

The Bulk Order Deed system in UO was pretty good in giving crafters something to go do each day and getting rewarded with special items that enhanced their crafting further.

Crafting based factions or currencies can give crafters goals to work for with visible trophies of accomplishment.

Mail quest system could be extended to offer crafting quests, as in "Such and such town needs this item, paying this reward in return."

Town sieges can include needs for crafting in their implementation. Anyone who's played a castle, civ, or war sim knows well the need for good resource management and industrial production to succeed.

Just a few offhand thoughts.

 

Thanks for sharing these! Everything like this is great for us to consider!

Scottie ^_^

 

The problem remains if the most desirable stuff is in the addon store, crafters are sidelined. The current approach is basically "make one super simple version you can craft and ten much better looking ones you can buy"

It is heavily weighted towards the add-on store. And it's a consistent theme throughout the game. So any economy regarding housing is already dead because most of the items you can just buy and can't make, and anything else you can have someone craft (because there isn't a great deal to craft anyway and what there is, is incredibly basic.)

It applies to clothing to, Because there is nothing much to craft. Pretty much all the wearables (some that have managed to persist from R4) beside armour are all store bought. OH WELL.

The economy is very much dictated by Crowns or real world cash. That might be OK with some people but it isn't what I thought I was pledging to support. And I will continue to say as such because I pledged a lot of money given my circumstances.

 

Autumn Willow has alot of good ideas but cant bring myself to go back and reread all of them

store sell skins for houses, crafters sells frame to assemble them.

store sells houses, changing/placing houses needs a house frame crafted.



store sells some really nice versions of furniture that can not be dyed changed.

store sells some pattern color type skin, crafters sell the frame thats needed to place.

store sells some pattern single use recipies, crafters then apply them to goods.

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btw just had a decay thought for furniture and houses everyday irl there is a tick witha % chance to "age" placed items. must use gold to repair or destroyed(store goods go to bank ofc)

cost can be scaled by new crafting skill (restoration?) or just default repair skill? there is a new button on the lot claim stone... for repair that can be accessed by everyone.

add some grime/age on textures of houses some tall weeds get added/render lay change? to yard under 50% repair

 

I'm sure there's a lot more ideas I can contribute, but as I was thinking on this more last night, it occurred to me that there might be a more fundamental problem of conceptual dissonance to solve first before moving to specific implementations. Namely that the Ultima Series had Avatars but not non-combat crafters, while UO had non-combat crafters but not Avatars, so to my knowledge (which of course isn't perfect), we've never seen or defined what a non-combat or dedicated crafter Avatar looks like. Without coming up with that first, then implementations to specifically augment crafting run the risk of conflicting with or detracting from overall gameplay in the long run.

If you continue with the current dichotomy where people define themselves as being adventurers or crafters, then you'll end up having to develop separate lines of content to satisfy each. A possible alternative would be to create some additional skill trees that will get people identifying themselves by their role as Avatar (or anti-Avatar if they choose to go that route) rather than by the activities they choose to do to support the role. For example, an Explorer skill tree that enables fun and profitable things to do on the world map that is of use to both adventurers and crafters, or a Virtue skill tree that gives interesting uses to positive or negative virtue advancement.

Besides changing the point of reference for self-identification, additional skill lines give more opportunity to develop universal content that can be pursued and enjoyed by the population as a whole. You can still make activity-specific content on top of that to deepen individual player experience, but it won't have to be a complete progression package to make people happy or feel that their options are lacking compared to others.

In any case, I think coming up with a specific, and perhaps innovative, vision of how/what crafting should be for Avatars is an important first step, without which you run the risk of people falling back on already established ideas from UO and other games where the crafting is viewed more as a support role done by town-dwelling citizenry rather than as something that can be heroic in and of itself.

 

What might be easier is to have the crafter be able to produce 1 or 2 baseline models that can be upgraded with no crafting skill by a store purchase. That way there is some reliance on crafters as well as dependency on the store for unique items. I suppose Port would find relying on crafters to not produce a bottleneck for in store purchases a little daunting, but might be worthwhile to test, considering there seem to be lots of crafters looking for work.

Personally, I would rather see game sales be the primary source of monetization and the game store largely go away. However, a compromise might be to add item decay to everything. So, your house has item decay that must be restored with COTOs like every 3 months. So, you can get everything you want from in-game, but if you want to keep it (and don't want to grind zillions of hours for COTOs) you need to use the store occasionally. Then, you could easily sell COTO subscription plans that allow players to basically pay a flat fee every month that ensures everything stays repaired.

Unfortunately, the free-to-play model has demonstrated that far more money can be made through microtransactions than game sales, regardless of the impact on the enjoyability of the game. It's gamers' own fault though. If you guys hadn't supported black market RMT, that led developers to realize they were missing out on a substantial chunk of the game's market share, we wouldn't have this 'buy a game a la carte' model. You know who you are .

 

So... instead of having only a few measly items to craft, you would suggest only having a few measly items to craft AND be forced to spend real world cash to keep it?

No, thank you.

 

Close; I would advocate having all items to craft and have the option of spending real world cash to keep it. As long as COTO's still drop in the world and are sold by players, you'd still have the option to use in game play to maintain your stuff. I think they would have to exempt all currently/previously available store items from decay. It would be something new going forward.

This means you have the option to pay on the back end instead of the front end. And the less junk you had, the less it would cost to maintain.

Edit: I forgot, the other option under this scenario is, if you don't want to spend more money, is to craft a new one/buy a new one from a crafter. So, no one escapes the pain of it, but the pain can be fixed without cash.

Like I said, I'd prefer they made money by selling the game and not having a store. But that's delusional, because they won't make that sacrifice. So what's the next best thing?

 

Well, I do like your idea of having add on store items be modifications to crafted items instead of stand alone items. I would tweak that however to be the opposite of what they have now, where IMO there should be say 10 different chairs you can craft, of varying quality and beauty, and a few awesome upgrades available in the store.

But no bones about it, I believe a master crafter should be able to build things that are as beautiful and well made as the items in the store. After all, the alternative would be to suggest that master crafters are not really masters, and that there are mysterious and never seen chair builders in Novia more artistic and skilled than the most skilled crafting avatar.

 

/facepalm...hadn't considered the roleplay implications . "They say there are mysterious chair makers in the mountains...must be dwarfs."

 

I was making some cotton thread in game to make a sack to put my cooking items in and for some reason I started brain storming this crafting thread. I’m not a person that likes crafting beyond doing what I need to do to get by but this concept made me think.

What if there was a hybrid system from these suggestions for the cash purchases.

Player 1 buys a high end good from the cash store.
1. Player 1 gets what they ordered and does whatever they want with it
2. An order is created in the game that matches the real world order
i. i.e. A baron from Spite has commissioned a work order for rustic village home
ii. some degree of fudging to create balance could be done here

The order is obtained by Player 2 in game (by bidding on contract or a flat rate to buy it)
a. A value in an amount of gold is assigned to the order
b. Players can only take orders for items if they know the recipe(if they have to pay cash for it) and have enough skill
i. Some high end recipes would require cash store purchase some would be available in game
ii. Crafters could craft a one time only item that is a miniature version of the in store item that they can display as a decoration.
c. Limit the number of active orders a single player can have by total value
d. If it is not filled in a certain amount of time it goes back in the pool to be filled
i. Players could have waits imposed if they are constantly missing dates
e. Player builds the item and collects the gold

The rest of the crafting system functions the same and continues to iteratively improve where players can craft the necessities and sell on vendors and make some gold that way.

In theory then the vendors are bringing in money to the economy that causes inflation. However instead of adventurers killing humanoid monsters to get gold they could focus on killing trees, rocks, and animals. The crafters could place orders on their vendors for materials and pay adventurers to gather for them so then less money is brought into the economy from vending items to NPCs or killing things that carry gold.

Feel free to point out why this is a dumb idea or add to it. It is more of a brainstorm type idea than a well thought out one so it won't hurt my feelings if you tell me why it won't work.

 

welcome to the club.

 

For me, I would like to see some advance crafting recipe that is only attainable through special quest and loot like the bone armor sort. And can only be crafted by level above gm like 110, 120 or 150.

And has ridiculous rng like 10% or less to succeed. Make the crafting grind more worth it.

If it is easy, it's not worth it.