Player Driven Economy - Portalarium's huge oversight?

• Player Driven Economy: Deep crafting system where the best items are made by players and player items are the main source of loot found in the game. (Taken from the front page of the sota website)

So one of the big draws (for me at least) of Shroud of the Avatar was the idea of a player driven economy.

I have fond memories of Star Wars Galaxies where the most amazing weapons and armor were made by a handful of master weaponsmiths and armorsmiths who scoured the universe for the best quality materials.

I remember visiting a tailor, who had a huge array of clothes for customers to try out, We sat around her coffee table, tried out many different combinations of outfits before settling on one and waiting while she crafted it for me.

I also remembered visiting an artisan's showroom, looking at the vast selection of furniture that he crafted, which were much much nicer than the basic furniture sold by the NPC vendors.

Now in terms of weapons and armor, Portalarium has kinda gotten it right. Making the most sought after weapons the ones that are crafted by players. While one can find armor in the add-on store, the ones that are crafted by players are indeed far superior in terms of both function and variety. The combat portion of crafting is pretty much player driven.

I leveled up carpentry with the intention of well... doing carpentry stuff and crafting some awesome furniture for homes, towns etc.

Sadly, in terms of furniture or social clothing though, the best items are definitely NOT crafted by the players. In fact, the reverse is true! Players are only able to craft the most basic of furniture/clothing regardless of their crafter level, while the majority of the options are put into the add-on store.

Why are there 7 store-bought pavers and fences while players are only limited to the basic 2 (rough wooden/Stone)? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Why are players only be able to build 1 type of house (which can be bought from NPC vendors btw) while there are dozens in the add-on store?

Why are 3 types of Ruins added to the game but only giving the players the ability to craft 1 size (small), while putting the other 2 sizes behind the pay wall? Why is the majority of the resources for decoration going to their add-on store instead of the crafters that are well... supposed to build these decorations? I'm pretty sure that weapon and armor crafters won't be pleased if superior versions of their wares are sold on the add-on store.

How can there be a player driven economy for furniture/decoration/clothes if all the best items are sold in the store? Is it Port's intention/vision for the game that there won't be a player-driven furniture/costume market but the decor market should be add-on store driven? Because from the way things are going, it certainly seems that way.

I'm not against buying stuff in the store mind you. I understand that we don't pay a monthly fee (though I've probably spent 2 to 3 times of a lifetime subscription for most other MMOs on this game ) and that portal needs to sell certain things to fill their coffers but portal is severely crippling the functionality and viability of certain crafter driven markets with their current practice.

I sincerely hope that portal relooks at the path they are heading towards in terms of player craftable clothes and decorations and remember that their promise that players will craft the best items in the game.

 

Maybe by "player driven economy" they actually mean players are driving the addon store economy around, not the ingame economy

Like you, I'm happy to buy stuff with real dollars, but yes would really love to be able to craft a ton more.

Hoping to see loads more recipes come our way.

 

The game is far from complete, so it misses still a lot of content. Part of that missing content are lots of cloths and furniture and non-essential stuff like that. It's still missing just because the focus still is on gamemechanics. Designing such lovely but non-essential stuff takes alot of time and doesn't has a high priority, but with time there will be more and more such cool stuff be available for crafting and I'm looking forward to it. I was one of those SWG crafters myself, mastering tailor and architecture-stuff (and later starships, too) and I hope to come back to that here, too...

So yes: lots of cool stuff is still missing, but not because of an oversight, but because there wasn't time to add it right now.

 

This will Sound Stange to some ppl now but the fact that we are allowed to sell gold helped the economy.
A few days ago i bought the SC airship ingame for Cotos I traded for. I didn't play a single dime for the Ship. I paid with my time.

 

I agree that the making the items take time, but there have been many items that have also already been designed and made recently (Fireplaces, Houses, Ruins) but the majority of the pieces tend to go to the add-on store instead of player recipes. The ratio of new models and sprites to available player recipes tend to heavily favour the add-on store.

I too am looking forward to more things as the game progresses but if they continue the trend of only giving player crafters the most basic mundane version of a new item while the nicer versions are store bought the issues of the lack of a player driven economy of furniture stands.

Ah yeah, I've had this discussion with my friends and understand that this is a totally viable workaround. My problem is the SC airship is a store bought item and not a player crafted item, yes you are paying with in-game gold/coto but essentially you're "selling" your gold/coto for real life cash and not technically helping the player driven economy. It also takes my experience out of the context of the game and isn't as much (but this is purely an opinion of mine haha )

I too have the option of trading my in-game gold for cash to buy items too but then again my time would be more efficiently spent just working in real life and buying the item. The existence of these superior store-bought items belittles the effort of the in-game crafters.

Heh heh, yes. This is pretty much what's happening. The most sought after stuff in the game is all based on their monetary value. That being said, the bone armor is a step in the right direction. But like I said, they're okay with the combat aspect of crafting. It's the social aspect of crafting that they're very much ignoring.

 

Indeed I see your point.
Non the less that's part of the player driven economy.
I guess you are falling for a common mistake: player driven dosen't have to be crafting driven.
In regards to a crafting driven economy we have ways to go.
Beside: I didn't say the economy is perfect. I just said it got better ;-)

 

Ah yes, but I guess this we're just disagreeing on semantics at the moment. Definitely there is a strong cash driven economy in this game and it can be seen as "player driven". However, just to clarify, I was just referring to Sota's definition of a player driven economy found on their main page.

Player Driven Economy: Deep crafting system where the best items are made by players and player items are the main source of loot found in the game.

 

Indeed.
I agree, waaaaay to go.

 

The problem with the crafting is the RNG and breakage. Period.

In your example, where you went to a tailor, talked about what you wanted in terms of style and stats, and then they made it?
Nope, can't do that here, not unless you have materials for about 50-60 attempts to get exactly what you want.
Making custom gear is based on luck or the ability to have enough materials to make it several times over until it both gets the stats you want and survives the process.
Because of that, work-for-hire, while it exists, its often just a matter of 'poke and hope' methodology that could leave you with nothing usable.
Its not like the crafter is going to get paid for their time if the gear doesn't turn out right, or worse, breaks completely.

While I like the idea of everything being crafted, players need more control over the outputs, as the inputs are ridiculously time consuming.

 

There won't be a player-driven economy because of the simple fact that there is no skill cap. Everyone can craft everything given enough time. I haven't bought a single player-created item yet because I dont feel the need. I'll train the appropriate skill until I can craft it myself.
So far this to me is the most incromprehensible design decision that made it into the game. I have 2 character slots specifically to create 2 different chars but what's the point if there's no limit...

 

There will be skill decay in place to work as a soft skill cap. If a person wants to do all crafting then he's gonna have to spend extra effort to retain that.

Due to recent change in gold and resources that affect the overall yield rate, the price of each commodity isn't quite established yet. Once people know how much thing really worth, they will have a better idea of whether they should go sink their time to obtain the items themselves or buy from other people.

 

Moderation, my dear Port-son.

3 Ruins released! YAYYY!

Get to craft the small one, other 2 sizes behind pay wall. BOOO!

Can I have the option of craft an uglier looking medium or large ruins instead of dabbing into the store? No. Ouch. Just play with the small ruins and make Minas Tirith already!

But here, an argument can be made too. Is a medium or large Ruin an integral part of a player driven economy?

I can make a really drab lot or POT if I do not go into the add on store, but am I losing out on the "best item" or is it just best looking item?

To my point. Main concern here I feel for Autumn is how much of a game is there actually left to "play" if every achievement or cool tag is tied to $.

There must be enough play put into a game to play a game properly or call it a game. Buying something in a shop is fun but it is not natural play, and hardly immersive.

I spend hours honing my Necro, leveling up my skills, but after hitting 100 death attunement and beyond, no title?

Not a simple Adept of Death title that I "could" put as a title to immerse myself with in the world? Smile and pat myself on the back for a grind well done? Nope.

Lastly,

all buy and no play, don't go that way.

Pikey Out!

 

Not everyone has the time or inclination to be self sufficient. Nor does everyone enjoy either harvesting or crafting. Far easier and faster to just pay someone who does enjoy those things (or at least doesn't dislike them) and has already done the work. There will always, always, always be those who would rather not have to harvest or craft and would rather pay someone else for goods. So long as it takes a sufficient amount of time and effort, self-sufficient players will always be in the minority.

 

Not an oversight, it is by design. If crafters make the best crafted decorations then the funding mechanism of the addon store fails miserably.

They only allow the best combat items by player crafting so they can stick to their stance that this game is not pay to win.

 

I think as Sota's funding stabalizes with add-on sales and Cota's. More should be released as recipes with only a few unique options going to the wallet warriors. Or in this case wallet decorators.

That is my two cents and I hope they go that way ultimately because eventually people will tire of having to spend real money to make a digital house look nice.

 

Ive said it before.

Software devs are great at software dev, coding and creating apps. As an infrastructure It guy we always kinda laugh at them since they some times barely know how to use a mouse... but think they do. They usually cant even build their own win10 computer much less conceve of building a high density data center with say VMware.

But joke aside,

Dev's are Dev's and usually not great economics experts. The issue might be that they actually think they are.

 

Funding model

 

So my question is whether this design is the vision that the developers have in mind? Is combat the only thing that's important to them?

Does that mean that deep crafting system they have in mind for the tailor is to just craft 2 types of armor? While everything else that a tailor can craft will be surpassed by what's found the store?

Why design so many nice things that will see limited use in the game (unless you pay for it) instead of empowering the players with even more resources to make the game beautiful? Why not give crafters the tools needed make the Social aspect (as opposed to combat) richer.

In terms of a carpenter who is supposed to make furniture, knowing that there are so many beautiful models of items that could be part of the game world but isn't because the developers would like $10 or $20 for the item, that is pretty much P2W in the context of that profession. I can craft some decorations as a carpenter, but if you are willing to spend money, you'll easily have access to decorative things that a decorative crafter can make.

 

I don't think it's an oversight... I think it's another case of "We're a small team with limited resources" and that the crafting (and many other sub-systems) will be fleshed out over time.
Not everything will be available day 1... Monthly patching and additions to the game are to occur every month for the life of the game.

 

My goal is to have a haberdashery. As it stand now, this is near impossible. I've no way to display items, too many items are non-dyeable and indeed, the best looking stuff is in the store. I've faith that things will change - in time. But the problem @Autumn Willow described is a fact - the best looking stuff is from the Add-On store. Sure, I can sell that, but I don't want to be a reseller, I want to be a creator.

I understand Portalarium's need to sell things. I'd hope that going forward the Add-On store sells more ingredients rather than fully crafted items. We already have black and white dye. I hope that things like wood stains, leather dyes, enamels, special tools, rare materials and the like are on the Add-On Stores's near horizon.

edited for clarity.