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Discussion in 'Release 9 Feedback' started by Invidia (Envy), Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

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    Well I thought i'd test the potion parts out in combat.

    I'm not convinced having consumables on the random card system is great ..... it seems a little weird.

    The issue is, any PvPer who will have any sense will have healing and consumables on fixed cards (your always going to need to use these items at any point in PvP). This kind of sadly then makes some other spells fairly pointless.......you would never have chance to cast an elemental in the middle of PvP should the right card appear. I would really like to see healing spells and consumables separate from the system ....... at the very least consumables should be.

    Other thing I noticed is that there is a timer on potions to use them.......and you can fail if disturbed...... my view is you shouldn't 'fail' to drink a potion and there shouldn't necessarily be a 'casting timer'. It should be instant. You could then argue that you might not heal as much if your disturbed (rp terms you might have spilt some of the potion).

    My biggest annoyance at the moment is that each time you move, if you are casting a spell then it will fail. I'd much rather see a system similar to UO where if you start to cast then you will freeze.
     
  2. Lord Baldrith

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    Yes, potions should not be part of the random system. I know you can lock them down (I did that) but I had to waste 2 extra placement slots and non-random slots to do it.

    I want a bar or 2 for any-time use items like buffs, band aids, potions, recalls, out of combat stuffs etc.
     
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  3. Duke Aventine

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    I agree, consumables on a randomized deck timer is a little odd. The downside is it is not up when you need it, which is what we are used to from other games. The upside though is that it forces us to consider if we should use a potion when it is available or not. This adds a little more tactical thinking to combat, more than a 'everything is at my fingertips when i need it' game does. That could add to the ebb and flow of combat complexity and make it more interesting. Dunno though, will the added fun from that balance the frustration of a potion in the deck not being up when needed. I think perhaps the balancing idea here is to allow potions to be used at any time from a pack, so if we really needed it we could reach in there too.
     
  4. redfish

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    We were having a discussion about this issue on the other thread, and I got a little testy about it.. sorry to anyone if I got on their nerves.

    I'm not against out-of-deck potion use, but I think sometimes its designed for the wrong reasons.

    So, I want to add my input on this..

    One of the bad things about modern RPGs, both single player and MMO games I've played, is that the potions have become a bit cheaty. Players often have a large stack of potions that they can draw from with a hotkey or some other method, and never have to worry about how bad their combat strategy is as long as they have plenty of potions on them. As their health dies down, they just drink a potion, and do that continuously in a cycle until they win the fight. In the end, this just takes all the fun out of combat. I don't want combat to be necessarily hard, I just want to bring player strategy back into it. Its fun, in the end, if you have to move away from an enemy to drink your potion, because you're thinking about the combat situation in other ways than "what button should I push." We need to move combat out of button mashing as much as possible.

    I think the devs may be thinking the same way and that may be one of the reasons they have the interruption timer. I agree, there's logic in the idea of partially drinking a potion. Although, it makes sense to me too that in some situations, you can't get your potion bottle out at all.

    I also think on a conceptual level, it does make sense that healing spells and potions are in the decks the same as any other skill. Getting out a consumable potion takes away the same amount of focus as using an offensive spell. It also would be the same as taking out an offensive potion -- say Conflagration potion or a flaming oil -- which I expect we'll see in the decks at some time. The concept of the deck system is you have limited focus during the battle, so have your reflexes slowed down. And, if you're wearing heavy armor, your ability to do anything is hindered by slugs, whether that be an offensive action or an action like taking a consumable. So if we end up exempting only consumables from the deck, we're giving them a type of special treatment. Maybe its a good idea, but its still a type of special treatment.

    On the other hand, what doesn't make sense is the deck system isn't contextual, but this doesn't only apply to consumables. When you're far from an opponent, it doesn't make sense that your hand-to-hand skills are coming up, and your ranged skills are not. When your near an opponent, it doesn't make sense that your ranged skills are coming up, and your hand-to-hand skills are not. It also doesn't make sense that healing spells and potions come up when you're full on health. Making it contextual would help, although there are some issues that need to be kept in mind when sorting it all out... like I'm sure, because your combat bar fills up slowly, that some people want to have their hand-to-hand spells fill their bar before they come close to the enemy.

    Other than maybe a context-driven combat bar, I suggested this as a solution:

    We have a number of free slots on our inventory that show in the space beneath our character's name, which is usually used for bags. I'd like an option to see these slots appear on the screen at all times. That's a separate issue from this topic, because I think we should just have easy access to all our free bags all the time, without digging through the Inventory window. It would make it much easier for players to manage their inventory. Say they want to harvest some herbs, they can drag it straight to their reagent bag or their herb bag. The way it currently works is that you either drag it on your person, and the item goes to your general inventory, or you have to go through the tedium of loading up your Inventory window first, which most people won't do.

    These slots can be used for consumables, too, and if they were always visible on the screen, we'd be able to use them any time we wanted, including in battle. I would argue for two conditions here. The first is that they are, in fact, competing with your space for bags. The second is that you can't stack the potions, so you can't have a stack of 40 potions and cycle through them. Possibly, they'll have smaller and larger potion bottles in the game, which is a form of stacking, but they could figure out a solution around that.
     
  5. E n v y

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    Thats part of my point.......

    I don't know of a serious PvPer (or PvMer for that matter) who would ever have Healing (whether it be bandaids, spells or potions including focus) as a random choice. They will always lock them down.

    So to break down current healing, there is Big heal, Mini Heal, Heal Pot, Focus Pot. that's 4 fixed cards before anything else is even considered, we might still be awaiting cure potions and bandages. So by the time you maximise your fixed cards with healing (which makes perfect sense).....where do large spells fit in, the spells that you simply cannot cast in a battle due to casting time (elemental's are a good example) and even in the unlikely event you found time/gap to cast one, the odds are that it won't even be in your bar.

    If PvP is going to be fun, at the very least consumables need to be separate from the card system.

    "I have 10% health....I want to drink a potion.....yes that potion in my bag......I CAN SEE IT....I CAN MOVE IT!!......I'm just not allowed because the random number generator hasn't generated my lucky number yet!"


    Although the card system isn't as bad as I feared, it needs some tweaking.
     
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  6. Akrondar

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    I am not totally against potions on the deck, you can make it work like some kind of belt anyway. But I would like a separated belt with some "fixed lots" because i don't think it is necessary to spend skill points to make your "belt".

    About potion replacement:
    I think it is ok to replenish an empty slot with the same kind of potion if it is available in your backpack

    About time to drink a potion:

    Potions should come on small flasks or vials. Fast to drink and easy to store them.

    About cooldown and potion effects.
    It would be ok to me to have the traditional cooldown on potions/artifacts.

    It appears that food will give long lasting buffs to our characters. So potions could fill the rol of instant or limited in time buffs.


    An alternative would be to give side effects (adverse effects) if potions are taken too fast or in a big quantity. In real life if you take too much paracetamol you will suffer liver malfunction, or if you take too much aspirins you could suffer spontaneous hemorrhage, so your medic advise you to take certain dosis at a given interval of time. To represent that concept in a simplified way in the game, all potions could have a similar base side effect that increase if you take more potions and fade away in time if you dont drink anything. On the UI we cold have a green bar on top of healt bar so we can see (if we want) how much quantity of "side effect" we have taken. If we are near to reach a critical point the border of the screen could turn green and then if we finally reach the toxic limit a negative buff is applied. This system would open the possibility of get rid of cooldowns and i think it would be fun :p.
     
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  7. E n v y

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    Oh the joys of full loot with risk and reward.................but that's a whole different story............ but as I am in the mood and whilst I'm thinking about it........We have all heard of the term 'Nanny State'......well combat in games today (including this sadly) seems to indicate 'Nanny Devs'. The view to try and protect people from others in terms of PvP/Looting has led to issues where PvPers carry 1000x potions and just continuously glug.....so what's the solution? not be so nanny? create a real risk for them? ..... NO! the apparent solution is to be more Nanny restrictive. Its views like this that got conkers banned in UK school, got snowball fights banned, got every bugger in the world wanting to "Lawyer me bro"....... and most importantly of all....regardless of everything else......it f**ked up my PvP!!!!
     
  8. redfish

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    Having a stack of 50 potions that you cycle through with a hotkey is just a bad game rule. :> This isn't about nannying people, its about creating a solid game with solid rules that are fun.

    Did you read the rest of my post?

    You know I've argued for full loot, right? :>
     
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  9. Akrondar

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    I think it would be fun to have lot replacement with potions :p.

    Potions are not free, must be made by players. If you give the possibility to use only 1 potion per slot per fight then the potion usage will be very limited and could hurt the alchemist market enormously.

    BUT, that is not my most powerful argument, the fact that to me would be fun to have slot replacement is :p
     
  10. Poor game design

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    I disagree. I love how consumables require thought. Games have allowed potions to be cheap and easy reset buttons for far too long. I REALLY like how they've done it here.
     
  11. redfish

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    I also argued in another thread for larger sized potion containers too. Don't mean to do plugs, but I think its relevant: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/reagent-potency-potion-doses.14331/ . They'd have to think about how they'd be used differently than small potions in any possible "belt", but.. it would at least theoretically give an advantage.

    I expect alchemists will be popular in any case. Healing after a short battle. Potions that you can throw. And they could do both the glyph + the slot.

    But limiting the amount of "free potions" you can take out and limiting how you use them does add to strategy, and strategy is always fun :>
     
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  12. Akrondar

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    Of course strategy is fun, thats why i would like some kind of side effect mechanic implemented like the one i posted early (could be another mechanic anyways)

    An alternative to side effect mechanic: limit on stacks of potions. You can have 100 potions on your bag but a limited quantity on your belt (maybe there is a limit on R9, didnt test it).

    You see, there is a lot of room for suggestions :)
     
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  13. Lord Baldrith

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    Of course they require thought. You have should have to think to bring them, and use them sparingly. I do not want to spend valuable points that could be used improving my spells to have access to potions.

    I will not use them if I have to spend points to make them usable rather than random.
     
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  14. Poor game design

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    Right, but don't you see how much more balanced that makes it? What happens if we do it your way is that everyone has to have potions to compete. But if we do it the current way, then you make your choice what's more important to you. Do you want potions? Do you want spells? Do you want a combination of the two? It's up to you, but everyone plays by the same rules.

    You can no longer run about the world augmenting your skills outside of the skill system. It's brilliant.
     
  15. E n v y

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    As I said most PvPers will do exactly the same thing, healing and potions will end up being fixed. It will be the people who get all excited over the idea of randomness who will die quickly in combat.

    This could end up being one of those defining moments that separate the PvPers from the 'Trammies'.

    Do I think the card system is wonderful?..... I think it's better than I thought, but I still prefer a UO basis of combat (ie every key on my keyboard being used in combat).

    Do I think adding consumables into cards is a good idea?...... Certainly not, it's awful.
     
  16. Isaiah

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    There needs to be something to keep potions from being instant heals and buffs. Although I think the interruption thing is a problem if you lose the potion, (and the glyph).

    If you start drinking the potion and get more than half way how about the potion cannot be disturbed, but you still wait till you finish drinking the potion. If you get hit before the half way mark then then you didn't even open the cork and drink it yet (but the glyph is still there and so is your potion so you can try to drink again).

    Sound cool?


    MAKING SENSE VERSION:

    1. If you make it 50% or more through the drink timer and get hit you do not get interupted, but you have to finish the timer before finishing the potion.
    2. If you get hit before the 50% mark you get disrupted, but the potion and the glyph do not get used.
     
  17. E n v y

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    The timer (time it takes to drink) would also have to be greatly reduced. As things currently stand I'm not even convinced they are worth using. Better off just using the mini and greater heal.
     
  18. Poor game design

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    It's really smart. It will bring balance to the force.
     
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  19. Caveloot.com Owner

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    Regarding your biggest annoyance, either im not understanding the option or it was not working very well when i tried it - but in option settings there is a choice for "prevent movement when casting"

    By default its unchecked.
     
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  20. redfish

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    I've been in a lot of battles in the game where I've been able to withdraw, drink a potion, and then move back into the fight. Its not a big deal.

    Of course heal spells are better but not everyone will want to spend their skill points that way, so they'll buy potions from alchemists.
     
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