PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

I agree that risk free tournaments should be in the game, There is a way to give everyone what they want I'm sure.
Likewise those of us who want to have open pvp and full loot should have it.

 

Actually I consider the boss dropping 100% of what he has but not what he could have.
Like items you have in your bank I wouldnt excpect them to drop but nontheless that is possible loot that i dont know if you have on you or not, same goes for the boss´.

 

You mean I've been getting ripped off all these years!? Now I am pissed! (I am looking at you Lord Vyemm!)
Excuse me while I go off into a corner and sulk about a certain dragon being a cheap, stingy @#*&. 24 of us died multiple times and you drop 6 things, WTF!!? Never mind that you had a whole dungeon full of dragon people trying to keep us from getting to you.

 

You do know that both Rust and DayZ have quite popular PvE servers, don't you?

Their brutal PvP is what typically gets all the coverage because those stories tend to be more interesting to read, but a large number of players in each of those games will not set foot in a PvP server ever.

Seems to be similar, though in a smaller scale, to what happens with Minecraft. In it's default setting a Minecraft server is open PvP with full loot, but the vast majority of servers I see announced on the curse forums (AFAIK the largest Minecraft forums everywhere) either have PvP and player looting completely turned off or else will blacklist any player that attempts it.

You are talking as if players in a mainly PvP focused thread were representative of the whole player base, which is simply not the case.

Besides, AFAIK PvP being by consent only in SotA is, at this point in time, set in stone — and quite likely it was so from the start, I personally only got my second pledge, and my upgrade in my main pledge to get a land plot, due to the promise that PvP would be by consent only — and even consensual full loot might require Portalarium to redo how gearing will work in the game. Full loot in a game where the best gear might take days or weeks to get would be far too punishing and likely simply push most players to never attempt PvP at all, or at least to never be flagged for PvP at any time they went to do PvE content that actually required that hard to get gear.

 

It depends on how you look at it I suppose. Plenty of people complain about not finding all the loot on something as simple as a wolf.

Killing 200 wolves to complete a quest for 10 wolf pelts is one example.

 

I truly hate the concept that there is the potential of swords/armor/gold/whatever dropping from everything you kill. See the little bunny rabbits over there? Keep killing them until you outfit your character with starting armor, weapons, and gold that they'll drop. Very unrealistic and pathetic.

 

Mercyful... then you hate ultimas, which has always been about how to ingenuously combine things you pick up on everything. Then you have to chose between stuff you might need later or carry a pack horse etc... am I really explaining Ultima...

UO was good, until people started selling stuff on ebay and hacking to sell more stuff on e-bay, this is a complex story...

Gunga nice to see you in here

Miracle Dragon, very nice post ! Thats exactly what I meant now I strangely feel like we're on the right track. I'm honored by your presence and dynamic inquiries.

REMEMBER ! UO was full of hackers and people who didn't pay for it really cause people made alot of money selling items and some guilds even were only about making sellable stuff to make a profit.

In here we have a DEDICATED team of passionate people, we have people PRE-BACKING that are for the most part really passionate about it. I doubt we'll have much hacking so its much easier to make a realistic structure to limit abuse, AND we don't have EA in our legs to prevent us from taking action (aka moderating the game) in a ROLEPLAYING GAME manner please...

Now if you think you can justify your hate of a ROLEPLAYING world.

If you think you can justify your hate you are worse than what you hate in this peculiar situation ! If you really think that this will turn into a big PK fest you are simply insane !

The good guilds are already strong and will overpower any PK niche... it would even be fun to see. In fact I would cry if the world was sterelised of all chaos, because my soul only blooms in mud. No compromise can be made...

I am the stranger and know my ethers ; I won't be participating often on the forums for this reason but that is one thing I really know : without common ground we have nothing, we don't even have game.

PVP, PK, PVE, Care*cough*... labels... freakin labels ! We're better than this !!!

I would like companions with power to call for our missing brothers and sisters above and below, only thus will we create a world teeming with joy, we need to listen to those who were put to silence !

and now ! not after release... its URGENT.

 

If the developers can make PvP the means to an ends and not the ends itself, I think this will help to carry it into the game play better. Remember, this game should be about the virtues and how our avatar handles himself/herself in game to strive towards or against these virtues. If I choose to act my character out in constant un-honorable ways (IE PKing lowbies that have no chance, killing for the sake of killing only and not for a specific higher reason like coming to the aid of an NPC/player, etc) then I should expect my avatar to gain notoriety in game. If I continue, that would mean I would essentially banish myself to be an outsider as every guard in every village/town/city should shoot me on sight! The only place I should be able to "safely" live would be in the den of thieves with others that despise honor. This is what I would like to see happen in game. The choices we make while we play and how we play should have consequences including PvP.

That being said, a possible alternative to the full loot may be staring us in the face in The Blade of the Avatar. Why not implement a blessed/cursed approach. Since people have to opt into PvP in the first place (this really is a must). Then implement a blessed/cursed state on things we use. Why should an avatar that has no honor be expected to take certain items of very honorable avatar? An example of how it could play out would be allow the looter to have full loot capability. However, there is a risk, if he chooses to loot something that has an opposite virtue stat then his own, he runs the risk of being cursed and dying. The more "cursed" things he chooses to loot the chance of dying from this curse would increase greatly.

Since in theory people who play by the same play style in theory will be gravitating towards or away from the same virtues, most likely they would be able to full loot off of each other. However people of radically different play styles (and thus different virtue stats) could still PvP, but the looting may not be easy due to the blessed/cursed state. Ransom could play a much larger role in this example as well, as the victor would then choose not to even try to own the cursed items, but just ransom them instead.

I think a mechanism like this could greatly enhance the role we will have within this universe as the virtues are of such high value and importance to the story as well as greatly enhance PvP. Just a thought.

 

I see anyone asking for PvP to be made non-consensual and I'm going to get into the discussion, fight, whatever. Besides, stating that I want PvP to never be forced unto me is a perfectly valid point of view regarding PvP.

Not that I'm concerned, mind you. Like I sometimes point, SotA devs have first hand experience with what resulted from open, non-consensual PvP in UO, which apparently includes some data about the effect of PK activity in player retention and satisfaction that isn't available to the general public; thus, I doubt they would be swayed by some anecdotal opinions regarding how specific players enjoyed the PvP.

Besides, if all else fails, the game has an offline mode. While the option to just not connect to the server exists you won't get more than a handful of unwilling players in the PvP anyway, so you actually won't get any benefit in how many people are taking part in the PvP from attempting to force it upon everyone else.

 

This is a PVP and DEATH thread, pretty much open for anyone to comment on. Regardless of what they think.

 

Consequences for actions should rule the game. That was the best aspect of UO and I think it should be carried over to SoA. A murderer, a serial killer... these are valid role playing styles but packs of feral children ganking everyone they come across? Does anyone like that crap?

Want to be a serial killer? Fine. There should be consequences for that choice, though. Maybe bounties, maybe bad 'rep', maybe shunning by npc's?

Would it be possible for the game itself to recognize ganking and log those involve out for an hour? "Ganking" being a pack of 2 or more players attacking a solo player, especially a lower level player, for no apparent cause?

 

Ideas:

1. What about putting a random item(s) into the queue of nearby monster loot if ransom isn't met? This could help contribute to the idea of item "permanence" by recycling items into the loot cycle.

This way a PK can't just go dungeon to dungeon killing players, and has to go after creatures to retrieve good items off of players.

2. Maybe a skill to improve the PKs chances of getting a ransomed item put into their bag, sort of like stealing? Maybe even it would BE the stealing skill.

 

Im not totally against non-consentual pvp..but with consequences. If you kill an innocent (non-flagged player)..your a murderer. The killer should turn red for (x) amount of game time. The killed player should be able to either pay a bounty to get his/her gear back or form a possy and put up a reward for his head or capture . If they kill/capture before the timer runs out the killed player gets the gear back free..and or maybe bring the killer to trial for jail time. I got slammed in prison in UO once for a week long ago. Someone told me how to dye my paperdoll backpack and I didn't know it was an exploit. Just a thought, hate on me if you wish.

 

No problem Silent Strider... but we just know (beleive me we KNOW : some of us stuck to UO "err Siege perilous" on EA until now) that lots of people think like you, thats why Darkstarr said brace for impact at the beginning of this thread. He knows theres is a portion of chaos purists that are very educated and will not go around recalling from dungeon to dungeon swiping all "farming" spots so fast that noone can enjoy the game. Those people you would gladly denounce and put to death in cold blood would fight alongside you if a non roleplaying PK gang came about with meta-playing intentions. And if its recurrent, then you've just made new friends.

And besides, this is the future and you can see the train coming back on track with the last posts, people are looking for solution so your extreme tought form grinds the gears of those who have been roleplaying ultimas for over 15 years, regardless of their opinion on the subject. I'm just saying move away from the track, cause its coming in full force I'm overly happy some people are trying to find solutions so don't take me too seriously cause I don't attack people... you just stuck out of the lot by waving your truman show fantasms

Again I think incredible ideas have been put forth : I'm all for solutions including roleplay even if its assisted by the system. More guard zones, lots of reputation options (much more than simple one level criminal rep is needed)

Important : There indeed need to be a ganking reputation counter, and once the "fairness" ratio is exceeded and the player is clearly a ganker, he might start to see and feel a little anti-virtue being pushed on him by the Gods.

You see noone ever complained about city guards whacking you if you take a step too close, that dosen't break a roleplaying mood too much, he's just a real good guard and can use magic. Same thing goes for gods and virtue, you can't argue that a god that has seen your unfair fights might want to handicap you for a while. I'm not suggesting any extremes cause I don't want to cause the "dark-side" extremists to rise (they've spared our eyes and ears lately)... but its clearly possible to limit any type of behavior with in game mechanics, especially with cloud computing. In the field we call it meta-social dynamics, and its a hot topic of programmation which I have specialised in during the last years. It is to me the defining point of the new genre MMORPG that is bound to take the whole market by storm in the next few years.

Parts of the player cloud input could be used to tick those counters, say a player comes out of town and sees you and 3 guildmates hit on a noob, well the "gods" anti-virtue counter ticks. If you have lots of virtue well the gods see through your eyes more, and the counter ticks twice. Why make it only an automatic report thing ? Because those ingenuous enough not to get caught or seen will last a bit longer, each side virtue or chaos need freedom and ways to feel empowered. It's really like a game of clue, the murderer need to have fun too not be shun upon and beat on the public place first chance we get.

Important : Good players like silent strider need to be empowered in more ways than simple game mechanics, they need to also have optional blessings that allow them to survive a gank. I'm not saying anything overpowered here, I'm just saying that virtue overpowers a band of thugs even if their stats are better.

The person standing in virtue should be more lucky, more resisting magic, more of everything that is justifiable with roleplay.... The only evil that should be allowed to prevail in that case is the directed, chanelled, focused pre-meditation of a real roleplayer. Not one that goes around recalling to every dungeon and meta-swiping the world for "prey". There is a time factor, and a weight factor to virtue, not black and white tiles.

So yes its also possible that if the bad guys do win, that they wont be able to remove that holy armor off your back, but don't make it literally impossible to remove, maybe make it take ALOT of time to remove, so that you have plenty of time to get friends and come back to the scene of the crime.

If you went out with your best holy armor and no guildmates were online, shame on your for taking that risk still, and roleplay is respected from all viewpoints.

 

Need I mention that skills like forensic evaluation were never really implemented par with intent in UO ? They add such a depth to the game, I hope this serves to remind our producers that some of us used to admire the ideas proposed at the beginning of Ultima Online with such burning fervor. We remember it as if it was yesterday...

But now they sound like a shadow from the past... it scares me ! Yes, even companions get scared ; we get to die sometimes too... well some of us do *sigh*. I totally realise we cannot have a second chance at Ultima Online, but there is some part of it that juuust deserves a seat in the hearth of this castle. Don't expect me to wander around rambling and repeating myself because I bear on it no responsibility more than thine own sufferances.

 

It is very easy to survive a gank, just don't flag PVP if you don't want to.

 

At this point I'm ok with a trammel - felucca split.
Trammelites forced the split on felucca.
It's time felucca put a split on trammel.
Give us our open PVP world and put fear back into this game.

 

As long as the option is available, and players are not at a PvE disadvantage — or blocked out of PvE content — by opting out of PvP, sure.

I have no issues, at all, with people wanting to PvP. I might even join from time to time, depending on how it works and the consequences; I do enjoy controlled PvP.

I have a huge issue, though, with people wanting to force me into PvP. That simply won't happen, because I would drop the game rather than engage in non-consensual PvP. And I look at that attempt to force me into a playstyle I completely despise as something that merits denouncing, no matter how "honorably" the player otherwise behaves.

If it includes non-consensual PvP, even if restricted by roleplay elements and simulated social dynamics, then I truly doubt it.

Why would a player that wants to avoid being attacked by other players even choose to play such a game? Specially when there are other games out there where players are completely protected from other players?

You seem to think that most players would prefer a more realistic framework for social interactions with other players, a framework that has the potential for both positive and negative interactions, over a simplified one that attempts to remove the negative interactions. I, sincerely, doubt that is true.

Now, if you mean that this kind of game could carve a niche, I might agree, though I believe EVE has already cornered that niche to such an extent that it kills new entrants, the same way WoW was killing any MMO that attempted to copy it.

For me, at least, it wouldn't work.

My issue is not, and was never, with dying or losing per see. Heck, I love Dwarf Fortress, a game whose wiki redirects "Fun" to "Death", and it's not uncommon for me when playing games where I have a health bar to add the restriction that I treat any health loss as a lost live. I also have no issue jumping into a (fully consensual) PvP game and being basically stomped by the other team.

My issue is with fighting against other players, real people, when I don't feel like it (or when I'm not sure the other players want the fight; same thing from my point of view). Being granted extra power wouldn't matter; even if I was made a god capable of exterminating armies of PKs with a gesture, being attacked when I'm not in the mood for it would still kill my enjoyment of the game.

Thus, if I can actually be attacked by other players without explicitly opting in for that, I will likely just not play, no matter how much I would otherwise enjoy the game. That position is likely final for me, arrived at from playing MMOs — including a few PvP-focused ones, though not UO — for over a decade.

I only consider roleplay respectful when it's consensual. That is how I roll ever since I started with the old pen and paper D&D (and AD&D), back when commercial Internet access was still a dream.

 

A niche ? hahaha let me laugh... its ok tho I never had any problems with people who need to be protected at all times.

It's just that people are getting older and at one point they will want a world that lives. A world with consequence and personal responsibility. Not a world where people are admired because of their gear or guild status and title...

Everything changes in this world... WoW playstyle like any has a limited shelf life.

I'm happy you haven't been intimidated tho ; others accused me of trolling this is highly inacurate ! I'm just surprised to come back 4 years after I been banned on stratics, and find the exact same players having the exact same one-sided discussions over and over again !

It sounds completely nuts : you come in here knowing that you already will have pvp flags, the only thing you fear is losing some PvE advantage. You come in here and state you don't give a damn about anyone, especially not the people that want to discuss here for solutions or a possible pvp server ?

It seems like you are trying to be inflammatory for no apparent reason ?

 

Each of these issues are still subject to being twisted into something they are not.

It's not a question of herding cats. It's people knowing that the person presenting the list of ideas most likely has a hidden agenda that will be revealed after the vote.