Response to Crafting Deep Dive

It's nail hammering time!

Generally speaking I'm pretty content with what I'm hearing about crafting. Except for this one issue. to put it in broad terms that issue is how items are/should be "removed" from the economy. Oh and this whole increasing repair costs thing.

First I would have liked that these issues be elaborated on a bit more but seeing how none of it is likely actually in code it's understandable (and still very much subject to change).

It seems that the premise behind 'removing' items from the economy still remains "they'll be too expensive to repair and people will want something cheaper"

Problem: What do they do with these items? Where do they go?

Not everyone wants to keep their old gear for display. If they've truly decided never to use it again (and especially if they don't have a home to display them in) they'll want to get rid of them. Will NPC merchants buy them? Will they end up in the loot table?

At this stage said item is probably in complete disrepair. Imagine someone new finds that item in loot. It's an old worn out item they can't afford to repair either. Now you've got a super uber player crafted item that nobody wants because nobody wants to repair the thing.

How many times will this scenario play out in-game? How many fantastic crafted items will become chaff loot that's no good to anyone because they're worn out and too expensive for most players to repair? If the game itself does not remove these items permanently from the economy somehow *cough*breakage*cough* then you've got tons of chaff nobody wants.. all player crafted.

I argue for breakage quite a bit when I feel it's appropriate and I'm not suggesting rampant, high-risk breakage but it's a natural solution to at least part of the problem.

There's another option I also like that we haven't really heard from the team about. Salvage. Any high level crafter should be able to salvage components / materials.

Between breakage and salvage you should have a pretty good means to remove items from the world economy. Some may argue salvage cuts into the harvester's job but salvage can't supply crafters much. It all comes down to balance and play testing.

On increasing repair costs.. it makes sense that if the items are upgraded somehow that the repair costs increase. Working with enchanted materials may require more enchanted materials for example and in that way the costs are passed on to the crafter through material use. That however, has its limits. Eventually repairs should never exceed a certain amount with that logic. If that is how it's going then it's fine.

Increasing repair costs over time without any other factors (say something costs X times number of previous repairs).. that I have issues with. The only way to do this is to pass the cost directly to the crafter via coin operated craft stations. Gamey.. real gamey. Not natural at all. Lived in that kind of system before and I'm certain there will be some emergent behaviors Portalarium isn't considering.

Let's say I have 3 sets of everything I use. I rotate through my gear as I raise money to repair the stuff I'm not using. By doing this I can extend how long I can use everything while it gets more and more powerful. Rather than needing a new set, I just switch out what I need repaired for what doesn't until I can afford the repairs.

Alternative approach. I have a set of 'good' gear.. and a set of 'every day' gear. My every day stuff I find in loot or bargain sales. I use it.. pitch it (without repair) and replace it with more loot while my good stuff is getting repaired.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if players want to find a way to keep their best stuff in service for as long as possible.. they'll do so and that'll affect demand. Having no risk of breakage will only make it worse. It's been indicated time and again that demand for new crafted items is desirable. Breakage increases demand.

The simple influx of new players is not enough to maintain demand. Remember that with new players also come new crafters and crafters want to craft. They don't want to sit around all day just making repairs.

Also I see no reason why the increasing value to players and breakage can't coexist. If gear is properly maintained than breakage could be at a minimum if not non-existent. Failure to maintain your gear.. neglect your gear.. whoops.. it broke! Now I need a new one!

I don't want to see some otherwise cool ideas turn into an economy flooded with really nice worthless junk. Nor do I want to see demand for crafters driven down because nobody needs new stuff. Between increasing repair costs, recycling through the loot table and items "growing" in power it seems like a potentially ugly long-term scenario if nothing is ever removed from the economy.

 

Need I say "recycle", "re-smelt", "un-ravel", "take apart", anything to recover part of the materials used to craft it to begin with... It should be easy to do and not require any skills, IMO...

 

I agree with much of what was said above and think there are some fundamental problems with the current thinking on increasing weapon repair costs.

It seems to me that increasing repair cost over time and breakage are both contrary to the whole concept of people being able to build up weapon power and history by killing 100 goblins using the same blade. One hand players are encouraged to continue using the same weapon to build its power and on the other hand the are punished for the same behavior by increasing the repair cost, mainly to drive the economy.

This issue could be lessened if you could pay a crafter to reforge your old sword when repair became too expensive, as a part of the recipe for a new weapons. You would need all the normal ingredients for the new weapon plus your old weapon. This reforging process could carry over the power you had built up into the new weapon. I think this would help with players not feeling like they were wasting their time trying to build a unique and powerful weapon because they would be able to carry forward some of their hard work.

 

I think it all comes down to; How many times you will need to repair an item, before it gets out of control. If its 100 repairs, and it will cost 25 gold & 1 bar of iron, then it goes to 50 gold & 10 bars of iron for the next 100 repairs. Where is the point that it gets outrageous? 1,000 repairs? 10,000 repairs? 1,000 gold & 100 bars of iron?

I think it will be up to the individual to decide "what is too much?".

I don't think "power" is the point of all this, any sword will do, what makes it special is its history, if you did kill 100 orcs that would be something to comemerate, but weather it becomes an "orc slayer" weapon, I don't think that will happen. Maybe you as the weilder will be more experienced with it (which doesn't do anyone else any good).

Again, if it takes you 10 uses to get accustom to a new weapon, that would be reasonable to me, as long as you are an expert swordsman/swordswoman, it should be no problem.

Just MO...

 

Prosperity items just became a lot more attractive

 

The OP raises a fantastic point. I don't have some clever solution off the top of my head, but I'm going to be thinking about it, now.

 

Another place you could remove items is by adding some kind of "Tinkerer" mechanic.

Kind of like reverse crafting, you take finished items, and you can break them up into their constituent pieces and create new and special items only "Tinkers" can create.

That's a way to create demand for items as raw materials and some negative pressure on crafting.

 

increasing repair cost could break the crafting...

however why not include item repair as a specialist trade? lets say you could choose blacksmithing---) repair

If you do so you could repair items that are otherwise to expensive to repair and that for a fee?
and if you give the repair specialty a way to make maintenance stuff that slows decay of items to sell of to other players. it would make the repair smithy a very popular guy around town and address the issue.

 

I'm having a hard time seeing that. Another problem with the whole increasing costs over time idea if that any exceptions will break it. If there's some specialty repair skill then why do increasing costs at all? Increasing costs is supposed to force people to retire their gear as a way of maintaining demand for new items.

The problem of needing to remove items from the economy remains the same.. in fact even more so without the increasing costs mechanic. Now instead of people finding chaff too expensive to repair.. they're finding more and more good stuff they can use. You have the problem of more and more supply and the only demand will be from new players.

If they go with their existing thinking on repair costs.. even a master blacksmith using a forge they own in their own home will have to pay cash currency to repair their own stuff even when they have all the materials on hand. If they could do it for free (like they should be able to with the skill, equipment and materials on hand) then everyone would go to home crafters to avoid artificially inflated repair costs and that whole system would be broken.

I do not think a solution will be found via repairs.. at least not repairs alone. Items must be removed from the economy to maintain demand. And I do mean REMOVED.. not retired. And repair costs should be determined by the economy.. that is.. the crafters.. not an artificial system.

I've explained my ideas in other threads but it's been awhile and rather than shamelessly plug my own stuff again I'll just rehash it here. I would do something as follows.

Breakage odds based on durability and number of repairs.

0% Durability is simply broken. You use it that long without taking care of it that's tough luck for you.
0 repairs.. 20+ % durability.. 0 breakage.. 1-19% durability .001% breakage odds.
1 repair.. 25+% durability.. 0 breakage.. 10-24% durability .001% breakage.. 1-9% .005% breakage.
2 repairs.. 30+ % durability.. you get the idea..

After so many repairs the numbers no longer change.. so say something like..

5+ repairs.. 80% durability .001...... etc etc 1-20% .01 breakage odds.

This is a slight adjustment over my original suggestion in that it allows players to basically keep an item indefinitely so long as they keep it in good shape. In a way this is similar to the concept of increasing repair costs except the difference is in the frequency of repairs rather than artificially inflated costs.

Also I'm not at all opposed to limited increasing costs due to magical enchantments and upgrades. That much seems reasonable.

This suggestion relies a bit on player behavior. The anticipation is that a lot of players will get lazy or simply forget to upkeep their gear. *break* whoops! time for a new shield.

There has also been the idea that repairs may not necessarily fully restore an item's durability. So if you're constantly using the same gear and it's taking a beating then eventually breakage risks becomes a little more of a reality.. but it isn't anything a player won't see coming.

 

hmm i see the problem, i'm kinda inclined to support the implementation of a " permanent Break chanche" tied in on actual age of the item. lets say you use a sword for a X amount of time you have X% canche to break it every hit . regardless of the item condition. as the item gets older the chance will increase eventually items will just permanently break down. and thus be removed from play

 

I only have 2 small issues with a permanent breakage chance.

The first is I think the devs will be highly resistant to it. They seem very keen on the ideas of items gaining personal value to the players. Earning titles and possibly small bonuses etc and probably feel that breakages will 'break' those ideas. While it is more realistic and I have no personal problem with it.. in order to achieve the design goals they're aiming for I think that players need to have the ability to control breakage odds somewhat.

If players feel they don't have control and have a chance to lose their "good stuff" at any time no matter what they do to a "bad roll" then it goes back to nobody using their "good stuff" which is what the devs want.

The 2nd may just be your choice of words.. "based on age" which is probably better phrased "based on usage". An item in perfect condition properly stored away is not going to deteriorate but it does technically 'age'. But I'm probably just nitpicking.

 

i indeed meant usage ( talking in dutch while typing English might have been the issue )

 

I do think having some breakage and being able to salvage items would be a good way to keep the economy from being overloaded. I agree to that most people playing crafters don't want to sit around all day repairing gear. I worry though that that is exactly what will happen if the current system they are proposing goes in. Sure in the early days of the game it will probably be fine but several months to a year in I can see there being a lot of problems with the demand just not being there. I think they said crafters will be able to sell their wares to npc vendors. But really how many people playing a character that is mainly a crafter want to just be able to sell to npc vendors?. They want to be able to regularly sell their goods to other players.

 

Right and selling directly to vendors just ends up seeding the loot tables with free, brand new gear. Which is fine up to a point but if/when demand becomes a problem and most crafters end up doing it then the problem just becomes that much worse.

 

I haven't watched the crafting deep dive yet, but I would like to see these things occur:

• Low chance on creation of failure and partial/total loss of materials (chance decreases as skill increases, never zero)
• Using crafted items as materials for other items (broadsword as requirement to make jeweled broadsword)
• Low chance on creation of other items of failure and partial/total loss of materials, to include the crafted item (chance decreases as skill increases, never zero)
• Chance of total breakage of items during usage, variable chance based on age/usage/previous repairs (chance decreases as skill increases, never zero)
• 'Breakdown' of crafted items into some, but never all, component parts is only possible with items prior to a total breakage occuring
• Chance of total breakage of items during 'breakdown', variable chance based on age/usage/previous repairs (chance decreases as skill increases, never zero)

and finally...

• Increasing repair costs, variable based on age/usage/previous repairs , with chance of total breakage (chance decreases as skill increases, never zero)

I think if all that is in then there will be plenty of opportunities for crafted items to be removed, both by choice (use in other crafting, breakdown for parts) and by chance (failures and breakage) as well as preventing it from happening too often (repairing and decreasing chance with skill).

The devs need to accept that not everyone can keep every item forever or the economy will just implode and that it is not a terrible thing for a player to lose items to chance occasionally.

 

I've never been a fan of critical failures. Especially with rare materials that are hard to get. Totally NOT fun for anyone. In these cases I think the discouragement factor is just too high. Loss of common, easy to get materials I can probably live with.

 

If there are critical failures, you should at least be aware somehow that your skill is not high enough to avoid them. Ie. if you have a rare ingredient, you would know you weren't ready to use it, and that you would have to either wait until you were more skilled or go through a third party.

 

But this implies a guaranteed crafted item by the GM crafter - assuming that there are no recipes with ingredients that exceed the GM level.

My own thought is that there should be a way to make a "normal" crafted item versus an "enhanced" item where the enhanced version, although slightly better than the normal version, comes with risk.

DAoC had this capability where an alchemist could attempt to push his limits to create a very powerful item but took the chance that the item could be destroyed and the crafter himself blew up! Yeah, it was very funny to watch crafters exploding at the alchemy table!

 

Risk of failure is not a problem for me.. it's having materials go *poof* entirely that I have a problem with. If you could salvage the failed product to try again that would be different. (Salvage implying partial loss but not a complete loss).

 

The more enhancement you attempt on an item the more loss you suffer at failure. Risk vs. Reward.
Agree with salvaging return less material than originally input.