Sadistic game?

Thanks, I may not agree with 15% of the things you post (which we have spared on, but I never held a grudge), but I have agreed with you 85% of the time. But they dont listen which is 50% of the reason Im leaving. BTW, 45.6% of statistics are made up.

 

How about putting back exp to 100% gain and removing the death penalty. then allow people to flag for the double exp but then encur the penalty if they die.

Really its attenuation that pisses me off...DESIGN the game right instead of adding stupid crap like attenuation. So Mac can LOSE 4+ million in an instant but it takes him 3 hours min to get it back? That is poor game design.

Oops, we put gear in the game that allows people to get their XXX too high and trivializes the game, what should we do? Oh add a hard cap of XXX to N. That is the definition of Poor Game Design.

 

Thanks that was an awesome reply. And I am here to say that it is not all about loot it is about mechanics. The fun mechanics we keep missing the boat on. Such as make an area and make it replayable. Give it goals and fun and of course interesting loot but not just loot. The trials are a missed opportunity imo. Ok well perhaps one day you will see something and come back. Take good care.

edit: and nothing is done of course and I'm sure we'll see many more changes and upgrades as we go forward. So while I can be negative it is not constructive and helps nothing. I still see a future for this game and it has lots of wonderful. It now needs some fun mechanics added in to support many play styles. Factions in the trials to select or team 1 or team 2 and weighpoints to capture all on a timer with the event happening several times a day. Walah. Little side quest achievements too would not hurt. Loot should be interesting and perhaps collection based to purchase.

 

I don't agree with you at all, because i know for a fact that port put in the death xp decay to replace the passive xp decay that was first introduced as a soft cap.

Saying that this game has a soft cap " because some people are limited in time " is just incorrect, it just takes them longer to get there. That was actually the exact reason that Port changed the passive xp decay, because it would hurt people who play less , and wouldnt matter to people who play alot. And i agree with that decision.

So, you say that these are are two different topics, when they are not. XP loss on death exist because people die. and As i said there need to be some kind of xp decay or loss in one way or another, or everyone will be level 200 in all skills as enough time pass ( even those who play very little ) , and even if you are leaving the game, im SURE that you would agree that it would be a bad idea to have everyone max level at everything?

 

That made zero sense. 1x or 2x XP has nothing to do with it. You want to know what is poor game design? having no hard or soft cap in any way shape or form. There need to be some kind of cap, and death penalty is the best i have heard so far out of what we got to chose from, because it only effect the REALLY high teir players, and doesnt effect low/mid level players at all.

 

How many players will be high level in a month with double xp? Or 2 months? A lot.

 

The itty bitty shrinking improvements you get for leveling skills over 100 is called a....drum roll please....

SOFT CAP

Each level takes MORE than the last level to attain. This is called a....drum roll please....

SOFT CAP

The death penalty for dying is a soft cap only for VERY high level toons. By the time the death penalty matters people have already outleveled 99% of the games content and its doing nothing. Even Mac. He can get 4 million (his penalty) in an hour(not contiguous). Is that really capping him in any real way? NO

How does 1x or 2x NOT relate to it...both are about how fast people can level but neigher is an effective soft cap. For people that HATE the death penalty allow them to chose some other penalty. Once halfbrained idea I threw out was less exp per kill. Perhaps let them set it per day/week/month or more often with a COTO.


Everyone just assumes that when people say: "there has to be a penalty for death" that its a true statement.....Lets question that premise. What exactly would we all be doing different if there were no death penalty that would ruin the game? Please enlighten.

What level would Mac be if he got all his death penalties back today?

I'll start:
1) Nothing about my game play would change
2) I'd whine a lot less when I die.

for the record I lose around 300k on first death. I am not gonna change how I play cause of it. Once it bugs me enough I'll stop playing. As of now its just annoying. Given all the other NURFs getting put into the game I would be surprised if the death penalty is here for much longer.

The negative effects of the death penalty are WELL known....so what are the benefits again? Nobody every seems to explain them.

 

No they are not. Some people complain about it, sure. But most people understand that SOME kind of XP loss/Decay is needed in a MMO without hardcap. And as i already explained, we have had a few ideas thrown around since the early days off this game, and i like the current one because it is the best of them.

You still didnt explain what we should replace the XP loss death penalty with, because if you think that its just going to be remove with no other change, than you are delucional.

I have better faith in the devs , and i hope i am right, because the day they let everyone become max level in everything, i walk.

 

Little Boy Blue,

the fact that you think the death penalty is blocking "max level in everything" is cute.

consider this:
Taking blades specialization skills to max level(200) would require 634 BILLION+ experience. The number is so big I'm having a hard time even figuring out what it means. I think that's 634,000 hours of upper tears grinding. Yeah, you win, leave the death penalty in or EVERYONE WILL MAX EVERY SKILL.

I've made 2 suggestions:
1) replace the death penalty with NOTHING, its not needed
2) replace it with the flag as I've described

I fully expect #1 to be implemented and soon. The rats are fleeing and the desperation to patch the holes in the ship has NEVER been more clear.

 

Well, I think all of us can explain storys about death decay
And I can't understand, why there was / is no attention given.
It's not about the game should be easier!
It's about a kind of fairness for our invested game time.
What I am talking about?
Well, what I wrote in a lot of posts was asking @Chris, why the death decay is calculated in REAL TIME
(starts again every day, equal how many hours you play!) and not in GAME TIME.

Really a very good reason for not to play every day. Why?
Let's see this example, if someone can spend 1/2 hour a day.

EXAMPLE of 2 players, playing 3,5 hours a week!

PLAYER 1 is playing every day 1/2 hour = 3,5 hours a week,
PLAYER 2 is playing only 1 day a week for 3,5 hours.

PLAYER 1: dying every day once.
PLAYER 2: dying seven times in his whole playtime (3,5 hours) at one day a week:

The loss for the first death may be -50.000 XP.

At the end of week:
PLAYER 1, playing and dying once every day:
7x -50.000 = - 350.000

Earned XP 1/2 hour: 25.000 x7 = 175.000
Daily XP Bonus: + 10.000 x 7 = 70.000

SUMMERY PLAYER 1: 175.000 - 350.000 = - 175.000 + 70.000 = - 105.000 XP a week


PLAYER 2, playing and dying (also 7 times!) ONE day a week:
-50.000 -25.000 -12.500 -6.000 -3.000 -1.500 -750 = - 98.750 XP, about - 100.000 XP

Earned XP 1/2 hour: 25.000 x7 = 175.000
Daily XP Bonus: + 10.000 x 7 = 70.000 (yeah, just logging in every day, takes 1 minute)

SUMMERY PLAYER 2: 175.000 - 100.000 = 75.000 + 70.000 = + 145.000 XP a week

Is this fair? The same time someone can spend, the same amount of death - with a gap of - 250.000 XP!

Consider: This calculation is with "only" -50.000 XP for the first death!
You can calculate what it means at -100.000 or more for your own gameplay ...

Well, are we crazy enough to play every day (not only as a casual player) ???
And yes, I mean: playing just for fun - The real life behind our chair still happens, while we play:
So we will be distracted by doorbell, telephone, crying chilldren or something else - and normally calculating one death every day!
And don't tell us: don't die - it's not so difficult! For sure not if someone can play concentrated all the time - but if not?

May be a "PAUSE" key would be fine to hide the Avatar (only possible if NOT in combat mode!)
@Chris, show compassion, please
At least for the first death of the day?

I am not against a kind of death penalty - I am against an unfair handling of our invested game time ...

Last but not least,
before leaving the game (like told by @2112Starman) because of death decay:
take a moment and think about your Skills, which you REALLY use!
I lvld down a lot of Skills to 40, because it makes no sense to lvl Skills higher I can't use parallel.
So I am thinking often about, what really counts for me. It isn't my goal to be a Master of Grandmaster

Just three examples:
(1) Shield spells: I decided for Ice Shield and all other Shield spells are at 40, so they won't count for death decay.
(2) Damage Avoidance: I am also using Fortify Defenses instead of Evasion (because for the higher Damage Avoidance).
Therefor I lvled up 4(!) Tactics Skills I never use (and never wanted to use) to 40.
I have many skills at 40, because I don't use them / to lower the death decay.
(3) Skill effects: Light or Night Vision, no reason to lvl up >40, the effect won't be better with 80 or 100!

I only have one skill at 120, one at 108 and one at 105, overall 5 Adventure GM skills.
That's base skill for Pole (I am using no other weapon tree, only Shield!), Light Armor and Healing.

So yes, we can prevent a lot of death decay points - even if we die! - by thinking about what we need.
It's not necessary and really no fun losing XP for >40 Skills we don't need at 80/100!

But this can't change the handling of how the death decay is calculated:
It starts every day from beginning - and that's the unfair point I really don't like ...

 

It's so hillarious , you go to one thread , people complain about 2x XP , because people will leave the game because its so easy to get everything.
You go to the next thread, people want full loot on death, and the thread after that, there should be no penalty to death.
You move to next thread, and people complain that the game is p2w because of backer rewards, and then in the very next thread the sky is falling and people are pissed because they made those items more availible it more people.
The thread after that, people complain that exploits are fixed because "it removes peoples fun".

And on the top, people say " they dont listen " . LOL.

Oh by the way, one last point - I know alot of trolls here hate facts since they have their own agenda but here is one fact:

- The rats are not leaving the ship. Let me show you here:



Compared to last year, Better numbers overall, higher avarage and higher peak. You can also go look at any of the open availible API mining sites where you can see that:

• More resources is being harvested
  
• More cotos are being generated AND Destroyed(Spent)
• etc etc etc

But lets face it, we are on the internet where Opinions > Facts

 

A little over a year ago I started a thread called "Experience point loss has removed the incentive to adventure and explore.", which - after running 42 pages was locked by Berek.

Here's a summary of my OP and I apologize for this wall-o-text, but believe it or not I've shortened it as much as I can, but I've a very serious point to make.

I am a member of a good sized guild, who've - for the past 4 years - joined together most every single evening to enjoy this amazing world of Shroud. We've grown with it, been awed by it, been exasperated by it and in the end and in the grand scheme of things, I would consider us as a normal group by most any standard. We Range in Adv levels between 50 – 115 which would probably fit a bell curve quite well - pretty normal as groups go.

On any given evening, what we used (yes, I said used) to enjoy the most - was adventuring out in the hinterlands to see how well we do against the mobs that are the most challenging for us, and a chance at one of the decent drops. What we've enjoyed most is the CHALLENGE that the tougher bosses offer. We loved to press the envelope and develop our group fighting as we grow stronger and stronger together. And we love exploring.

With our decay system as it stands, we are seeing an increasing number of our members who are starting to "bow out" of our nightly adventures. Our excited, happy, involved group has become noticeably smaller and exponentially less excited and happy in our daily excursions. It all has to do with making up (re-doing the xp grind from the day before) because - in our quests to defeat difficult enemy's - our current system of losing experience points from our xp pool (or skills if the pool is insufficient) upon death has shown to be so incredibly counterproductive as to be ludicrous.

Here's what that death penalty's say to us: "You've reached the point in raising skills now where - if you die tonight - you are going to have to spend an hour or more making those points up tomorrow before you start, and if you choose to continue to raise skills then your penalty will increase proportionately - forever ". So, stop gaining skills - you've gone too far. If you continue to treat Shroud as one adventure after another, then you will forever have to spend more and more time making up for dying.

IE - DON'T DIE.

Don't explore.
Don't take chances.
Don't adventure.

For a game that is being built for exploring and adventuring, being told not to die is simply beyond ludicrous. Most of our adventuring fun often includes deaths - otherwise it would be the same boring safe places forever, and that concept (stay in easy, boring scenes) is what is completely unsustainable. No one that I know came here for boredom.... For us normal people who have the most fun exploring and adventuring - this death penalty is a killer. Having to spend a good part of what little time we have every evening just making up for dying during the past nights adventure has taken all of our fun away from us, and there is the distinct possibility that it will drive us from Shroud. There is not one among us who doesn't simply hate this loss of time, time that will have to be spent killing mobs that won't kill us (you know, the ever so boring grind) just to be back to where they were before they died. Our time is important to us and we feel seriously pissed when we are forced to redo our time raising the same xps over again.

At the end of the first 31 pages, I did a summary of the "hate decay" posts/likes vs "decay is fine" and here is what I found.

Adamantly against the death penalty, including the poster and "likes" on the post = 433
No problem with the death penalty "as is", including the poster and "likes" on the post = 33

So, that's less than 8% who believe the death penalty is "just fine" vs 92% who say it must go. I would say that was a trend that can't be denied.

Here's a sampleing from that thread:

from @kaeshiva :
There are ways to add risk without halting player progression.
This thread asked about "years from now."
The current unsustainable decay system punishes players the more they play.
Of course I suppose I could just not level any more skills so my decay doesn't go up.
But if you can't progress your character, whats the point?
The solution is -
Don't explore
Don't group
Don't die
Don't do anything non-trivial
And honestly, while I'll do that for a while, I don't think I've got the stomach to do it for "years."

from @fonsvitae :
Decay is probably the biggest turn off in game for me and the thing most preventing me from considering seriously a long run in SotA.

from @Johnwick :
I personally think the death penalty is stupid and should be removed! It keeps us from adventuring in fear of losing XP. Its enough of a punishment just to get killed, and now we have the loss of XP. All the time I've been grinding is now worthless! I don't have 24/7 gaming schedule so it does effect me!

from @Cordelayne :
Decay is terrible. It is a lazy game mechanic implemented to give some "meaning" to an avatar's death. Which it doesn't do. What it has done, is caused people to not want to party up and take on boss level monsters. Or explore really tough dungeons/areas together. This is really disheartening to me because people (myself included) literally don't play anymore because of this mechanic.

from @Gamician :
I have yet to find another game that spends so much time encouraging players to be as best as you can so we (the game) can punish you as much as we (the game) can.
the most important thing to me in the game is "My Time" and I do not like having to repeat what I have accomplished over and over and over and over again.

from @Katu :
Yesterday i logged in. Got my buffs and food. Then i went to deepwood and died quite suddenly.
I logged out and still today too pissed of from my mistake, so I played other games.
Its not fun and with the few hours I have for games, I choose those that are fun.
DONT STEAL MY TIME

from @Lesni :
I'm not one to say too much critically.
I fully support the game and the developers.
However, the loss of XP with death and the decay SUCKS !

from @Budner : (dang I miss Budner)
Caveman analysis of decay:

Chris want decay
Chris make decay hurt caveman bad
Caveman sad but still play
Chris make decay hurt brain
Chris say OK I make decay weaker but hurt Caveman brain more
Chris make decay weaker and hurt Caveman brain more many times
Caveman scratch head, want decay go away
Caveman wonder why Chris hate caveman so much
Caveman throw club on ground
Caveman go in cave and cry
Caveman wonder why such an ill-conceived, watered-down but still punitive, sadistic, fun-killing and ridiculously complex system still exists unless it's just to piss him off.
..... @DarkStarr I will buy you a shiny new handle of Tito's AND personally polish your beautiful noggin if you can convince Chris to let go of this misguided succubus we call decay..

from @Andartianna :
It doesn't matter if you take 1 min or 4 hours from a player with decay you are still taking their real life away. That is time that is now subtracted from my life to redo the same thing again. I am very happy to allow optional decay for any player that wants that experience of having their real life taken away from them.
Down with the DEATH TAX!

from @StrangerDiamond :
We all know some people like their death decay, if you want to be constructive explain in more detail how losing time enhances your immersion, then we can analyse the logic behind it

from @Fister Magee :
It has been proven time and time again, that the decay does NOT do what it was intended to do.. so, it should be removed before it does irreparable harm to the game.

from @Preachyr :
The current system still hits casual players much harder. As we see in this and other threads, people with limited time are being discouraged from adventuring because if they die they take a full xp hit and have to spend a higher % of their play time regaining xp that they already had. This is not fun for most people, and is really turning a lot of people away from either doing anything fun, or just logging into the game at all.

from @LiquidBlaze :
I find myself not exploring or trying to go to places anymore knowing it could be a multi-death show...
Anyhow, it's simply true decay in this manner goes against people exploring, and what not, because I find myself avoiding situations as such often.

from Berek when he locked the thread at 42 pages on 10 Oct 2017 :
I'm talking with the team about any information we have to respond here. We will update you if we make any changes to the XP system, to which I know there is at least one change coming. In the meantime, the thread has gone on long enough...

We've recently seen Portalarium make some "quality of life" changes that most all agree were way overdue.

However, they missed the most important "quality of life" change that MUST BE MADE.


GET RID OF THIS STUPID DEATH XP LOSS. IT HAS ALREADY COST THE LOSS OF MANY PLAYERS AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO AS LONG AS WE HAVE IT.

For the sake of the future of SotA, "KILL" the horribly stupid death xp loss... DO THIS.... DO IT NOW !

There's a bunch of people who'd come back, and a bunch more that won't leave in the future.

 

@FrostII

Very good post. Good recap!

If such a vast majority of players still want XP penalty to be gone, it should be done. I Just wonder what it will be replaced with.

 

Stop over thinking this!

 

@Brewton Is it "over thinking" or just "thinking" in general that bothers you the most ?

I think your extreme position is best illustrated by your own post:

 

personally always thought the penalty in old UO and in EvE Online was alot harsher but if its preferred over XP loss, i say let us randomly have a chance to destroy pieces of gear on death or just have to make it back to our dead body to loot our stuff.

Or itll go the other way and youll get a certificate of participation and the "throw your self at it till its dead" tactic littering popular scenes

 

So, I really don't see what the big deal is about the death XP loss. Any loss you occur you can get back in like 10 minutes at Upper Tears. What's the big deal ?

 

Not everyone wants to power grind at high level areas to try and recuperate the xp death penalty loss. I've always not been a fan of it. It's beyond frustrating for me (and apparently a lot of other players). Death should have consequences - I think we all agree on that. But the xp loss and especially the equipment damage is too punitive. Why not just a -5 to strength/dexterity/intelligence and crafting for x amount of minutes? Another death adds another x amount of minutes. That way, you still can play the game and know that you didn't lose anything... you're just recuperating from a resurrection.

 

Honestly just get rid of it completely. Attenuation and ludicrously high skill caps have the same effect without making all your high level players run away.

 

I really wish you wouldn't leave....
But I think in the long run, you had made the decision months ago, when you started liquidating your assets...
BUT....
Please don't go.....