Shroud 2020 Vision

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Chris, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I still think personally that masking pricing is a bit pointless, since I'm going to be wasting my time going to vendors with overpriced crap which is wasting my time - exactly what the search is designed to prevent. I understand that these people want me to waste my time, since if I've travelled all that way I might pay their high price because I don't have the time or patience to keep repeating the same actions over and over to find somewhere else. I just don't think that is a valid reason to limit a system.

    As a BUYER, being able to find people who are selling what I want with less fuss is better.
    As a SELLER, having people be able to find me and my goods, is better. If my pricing is fair, there are simply no downsides for me in people being able to search and find me.

    I really don't understand all the objections or paranoia about "race to the bottom" (this already happens here anyway, it just happens more slowly. Look at the agriculture prices. Look at all the gear being sold at below cost throwaway prices, look at food and consumables being sold lower and lower, to where scrolls are being sold for less than component cost to craft them, etc.) With the supply vs. demand being as out of whack as it is, this is inevitable. Once again I feel like we're intentionally trying to keep ourselves in the dark age, which will benefit a handful of people who either have premium locations or who have spent a lot of time and effort developing a customer base, but its detrimental to the game as a whole due to limiting everyone else.

    It seems the main objection seems to be live pricing.

    Since we already have a database of historical pricing via the receipts database, it seems counterintuitive to not have price history at the least within the game, since its something that you can already get by tabbing out of the game. And with LUA, I'm sure addon users will have this anyway. In other games that have addons this inevitably gets built. In ESO for example, there are TWO such addons (maybe more), that capture live vendor information and feed it into a searchable database. Why? Because so many people want this functionality. It seems if we are going to spend the time and effort to revamp the vendor system, it should be robust enough to not require, or give advantage to, people using third party tools.

    Town vs. Regional vs. Global - seems to me only difference is how many times you're going to have to teleport and re-query what you're looking for. Town-wide will help a little, but I don't see any reason to force the player to endure a dozen loadscreens going from town to town searching. Its the main reason why we want a search to begin with, to limit the pointless tedium and so that people can find stuff for sale perhaps outside the core market town. Regional would be better, but how many regions are we talking? What's the value-add for having to shlep all over the world repeating same function?

    So we can implement a search and cripple it by having it hide key information that players will get from addons, but then what's the point of doing it at all? Just let the addon people handle it. It seems more and more likely that this will be the result anyway. The problem is that this doesn't increase visibility / accessibility for people coming into the game who don't know addons exist, and I personally am not thrilled with having to download/install a bunch of addons to get the game to the same state that others enjoy or be severely disadvantaged.

    For me personally, it would be enough to do a search, get a list of locations/vendors where the item is available, and show me the last 7 days price history or something for the item so I'd have a reasonable idea of what is fair. Not an average - people will just buy stuff off their own vendors to inflate that. Actual history of sales/quantities. I would then have to travel to said town, walk to said vendor, and buy what I want. This would be satisfactory. If people are trying to game the search, or are overpriced, I'll over time learn who they are, and avoid them. Just like we do now. If people are consistently fairly priced and stocked, then I'll remember who they are, and go straight there instead of searching. Just like I do now. I still don't see where all the doom and gloom is coming from. Some folks want to "play the market" and that's absolutely fine. I don't. I just want to buy what I want and be done with it. Will you lose arbitrage with a global system? Absolutely. Seems like a good reason to make the market system unusable for absolutely everyone else, right?

    Considering the violent objections to increasing convenience in the market, I guess we'll just wait for the add-on bandaid.
     
  2. ShurTugal

    ShurTugal Avatar

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    I suspect it's coming from those benefiting from the current system and their friends. They dont want to lose their golden goose but what they dont understand (or maybe dont care) their golden goose is being paid for by the rest of us. Well said on your post.
     
  3. Gageman

    Gageman Avatar

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    Your points are excellent. We have no business with these suggested "Half measures". The global search feature is the only real way to unobscure the commodity market. I will reiterate that the only ones who suffer from this is the landed gentry who land rushed the best NPC town vendor spots and those will NEVER become available for other players to have the opportunity to compete. I have a friend who has probably 12 vendors located in key areas around the map and he sells a TON of ore and more.
    He always knows what the price of ore should be and does an amazing job of keeping his vendors stocked and loaded up, but its just that for him, a JOB. He never gets to play with us, because he has to constantly be traveling around stocking vendors. How much simpler would it be for him , if he could just keep 1 vendor stocked and be able to really enjoy the game. Furthermore, he could take that extra time he would have to stock a larger variety of items, if that was his choice. If we dont have a global marketplace WITH prices listed, we are purposely interfering with the free market for the sole benefit of the chosen few.

    Lets not find new and unexciting ways to waste time , lets make the model efficient and have time to do the things we want to be doing!
     
  4. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    That might be the game for him.
    The whole trade thing is actually the ONLY FRIGGING THING I do in this game beside farming the stuff I am selling.
    For me, that's fun. I doubt I would play as half as often if we get a global market with linked vendors and whatnot.
     
  5. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    For the mentioned gear I guess the problem is that everyone can create them and is doing it to get crafting exp but there was, is and will never be a market for all the produced items. In a "you can do everything" game where everyone is following that rule there is I guess a game mechanic needed that is acting as market for uninteresting crafted items. E.g. the guards of all towns could regularly need new armory or taverns get "raided" by drunken guests and need new inventory and by a quest we are delivering it.
    For food it is the same but a possible solution could have been changes like in my suggestion: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/cooking-skills.157718/
    About the scrolls...I think the reason for the low price of scrolls and similar items is that you can get them as loot...so to say "for free" and they drop quite often. I guess no one is crafting scrolls anymore and there is just a redistribution of looted scrolls between the often and less/not teleporting avatars.
    But I guess another problem might be that not everyone is interested in gold and they take what they can get as their priority is the crafting exp as they can create gold more easily somewhere else and just want to get rid of those items blocking their inventory...and I guess another part of the avatars is simply not calculating and they are not even recognizing that they would get more gold if they would sell the resources. Of course a global search might help them to set a fitting price but this is just working as long as the majority is calculating. If the majority don't care or just follow the others I guess the price can just go downwards.
    Don't misunderstand me I'm not generally against your suggestion...I'm simply not sure this would be the best solution...maybe another help could be a more accurate price calculation of the game client. If the game would have reasonable standard values for resources and calculate the item prices based on those values this would be a much more reasonable guide for selling an item.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  6. Gageman

    Gageman Avatar

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    Why not? If you could list all your items on one vendor, you could use that extra time to LIST MORE types of items. See, I just doubled your fun for you... No thanks necessary.

    Just doing my part! Glad I could help.
     
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  7. Gageman

    Gageman Avatar

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    Lazy? Its not a vendor game, its an MMO. The game is not to see who can check the most vendors, its to play out a fantasy. I am afraid, we are going to disagree on this point. Take solace in the fact that the option for you to also rage quit the game is still available and you will be in GREAT company with the majority of the people who ever played this game.
     
  8. Sean Silverfoot

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    It's a sandbox game, folks have fun doing what they like, period. No one is FORCED to do anything. Your last comment was totally useless. But in a way true, you do have the ability to rage quit if you want.
     
  9. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Avatar

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    I was going to stay out of this argument, since I am a consumer and as @kaeshiva outlined in her posts, am totally for a global listing that includes item prices because of its expediency. To me, shopping for a particular item is beyond tedious and a reason why I don't really do it. Except when shopping for deco and then I just go to @Vladamir Begemot and @EclipseMaiden for everything (love you guys)! :)

    However, I always try to understand where the other side is coming from. I googled MMO's/Auction Houses and came across this great post by Raph Koster, who really put the whole thing into perspective for me. I hope folks enjoy it: https://www.raphkoster.com/2012/03/20/do-auction-houses-suck/
     
  10. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Ah yes the good old swg times. I highly recommend @Chris to read that one. That said, I recommend everybody in this topic arguing for one side or another to read it.

    Btw: swg got streamlined to death. There is a lesson there for people.
     
  11. Mhtic

    Mhtic Avatar

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    Sounds more than amazing! Great post @Chris !
     
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  12. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a global search, as long as it still requires an in-person visit to the vendor in question.
     
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  13. Numa

    Numa Avatar

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    Many thanks for the link to that great article! I think the passages below sum it all up.

    Personally, i think that if you can see the POT, PRT or NPC town on the overland map from where your avatar is standing then you can see whether the town's general class of goods (ie. weapons, equipment, food , reagents etc) have prices & quantities greater, lesser or equal to the min/max/avg of ALL the towns in your avatar's sight on the overland map. If you want more details then talk to the town crier of the town you're interested in.

    This approach avoids the pitfalls and rigidity of regional approach (what if you can see two or more regions?) and the troubles a global auction house will bring.
    --------

    SWG eventually did put in a serverwide auction house, responding to WoW. It made life easier for the buyers. But it created a perfect information economy, and all that complexity and variation that was present in the market earlier fell away. Small shopkeepers were shut out of markets.


    If that happens to you in a game, you don’t find another line of work. You quit.


    So do auction houses suck? No, not if your game is about getting. It is a better experience for a gamer interesting in getting.


    But the fantasy of running a shop, or being a business tycoon, is not just about the getting. It is about the having — of relationships, of an empire, of a well-oiled machine. It is about running things, not about working your way up a chain of gewgaws. The gewgaws are a way to keep score, but you play the game for the sake of the game.


    SWG was not a game about getting. After all, everything you could get in the game eventually broke. It was about the having. Having your shops, your town, your supply chain, your loyal customers, your collectible Krayt dragon skull or poster or miniature plush Bantha like in the Christmas Special.


    When the merchant changes went in to SWG, the merchants went out.
     
  14. Numa

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    Caveat to my idea above: I'm not sure how to handle nested POTS :p
     
  15. dayero

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    i like the idea of a global search, but i would not make it accessible directly by the player. instead i would integrate it with the barkeeper rumors. (+ maybe npc merchants). so you ask them about an item and they give you a semi-random nearby location and a semi-random location with a below average price.
    like this:
    "I heard a merchant in snorkwood sells green puffponys. But you might get them cheaper in gnorkholm if you are willing to make rhe journey."
    maybe include the name of the vendor owner too and an estimate of the vendor prices and the average price.

    I know it's a bit more work for both the devs and the players, but a directly usable global search is really lame and un-rpg-ish.
     
  16. Vladamir Begemot

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    I would venture the number was higher for Shroud in the early days. But years of banging heads against the vendor UI has brought that enthusiasm to a crawl. If the UI can get me to the point where I dread logging in, it can crush anyone.

    If the devs fixed what they already have instead of making a new thing (that won't get finished, it's funny watching all the fighting when we KNOW it won't get finished) you would see a lot more stores re-open which would mean buyers aren't having to look through all the shuttered out of business stores. They would have a lot easier time of it.

    Anyway, history at this point says that the developers will only get about 70 - 80% done with any new interface before moving on to the next thing, so I suggest rather than clamoring for one more half baked system you just twist their arms to finish what is already in.
     
  17. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    That'd be alright, but maybe a little too low-key. Certainly, I think it would be better if the search was initiated by interacting with an NPC rather than just pulling up a menu via a a keyboard command.
     
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  18. Vladamir Begemot

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    Thanks for the article @Cordelayne, very interesting and something I had felt. Really the reason I'm here at all was to play as a merchant. I can go do combat elsewhere. But the interactivity of running my own store with players coming through (heck, there are even single player shopkeeper games), is the entire game for me. We'll see how it goes, it's all balanced on a knifes edge at this point anyway, and I think everyone knows it. Two more important quotes:

    There is an entire game with in Shroud that is shopkeeping. And in my opinion it is the best game in the game. Just my opinion of course, but if you put each individual part up against the other MMO's, combat, fishing, deco, shopkeeping, I think it's only the deco and the shopkeeping that stands out as better than the competition. And making cool outfits, but I do believe the ladies need some new dresses soon or they are going to get bored.

    We'll see if convenience wins out and removes an entire part of the game. And then we'll see what that means to the population. Do people suddenly come flocking to the game or is it another big population slump? Oh if only we had a way to judge from history.
     
  19. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    In a 100 games that simply do it better than Sota.

    Arghlol.
     
  20. Spungwa

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    SWG had a great crafting and gathering mechanics. It however had an over supply problem with its economy.

    The only reason on my server, this was pre even jump to light speed, that prices did not crash to zero was people grinding every skill tree to unlock jedi. Once holocroms become easier to get and you knew which trees to grind demand for everything dropped save the very best gear which went through the roof because there was nothing else to spend credits on. SWG economy had serious long term sink problems that got bandaided by jedi grinding.

    But as I say, the crafting and gathering was top notch, the economy model, not so much.

    All this was prior to any auction house, I never even knew SWG went the auction house route, I left before then. But the above was already evident to anyone that tracked the economy, at least on my server.

    It took me playing Eve and seeing the difference to realise the cause in SWG, but the trend I had already seen.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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