SOTA: Opinions on the product so far.

I don't think I have seen anyone pushing single player out of the game, just like I haven't seen anywhere that the original contractual promise was for single player only. I think from the post that @Spoon made shows very clearly that most of the single player features are tied closer to the storyline (which is as it should be isn't it?), and that by design and desire for keeping the content somewhat secret, that it was necessary to delay the work on those features until closer to launch. No where does it imply that they are doing away with single player mode. It is very very similar to the pvp content which has been delayed until launch (or even after). You know that i'm a hard-core pvp'er, I have a hard time 'feeling your pain' about things changing and evolving. . . especially since I don't plan to ever play single player mode, and couldn't really care less whether it exists or not . . . . but at least you know that there will indeed be a single player mode.

We have a right to expect a product. I'm pretty sure the fine print somewhere says that anything you donated for was covered by the publish of that finished product, and that the details were subject to change. I haven't actually read that in the fine print, but I can't imagine that Portalarium would be stupid enough to do anything less than cover their butts. They aren't amateurs at game publishing.

 

If there is money involved then I think the sentence "Don't lawyer me bro" doesn't apply. I gave money for what was advertized. I can't promise someone a blue car, collect money up front then deliver a green one and say "Don't lawyer me bro".

I am totally expecting the single player offline mode to play like other true single player games. I am expecting a Risen 3 or Pillars of Eternity in single player and this is what I gave my money for.

 

@Jackrabbit
Not necessarily all tied to a secret story. Just simple tech Prio predicts this.
You gotta build the tech first and the most complex tech scenario is the online mode, it is also the most easy to get players to test.
For instance we can see them iteratively try out more and more complex AI, those are essential to single player but best implemented and tested in online first.
Similar logic to most tech. If they started with single player a lot of the tech will have to conceptually be worked all over again for multiplayer online, but the reverse isn't true since single player can inherit a lot the other way around.

 

You certainly can, if the fine print says that you are to deliver a car, and that while it was originally talked about as being blue, the final color choice was up to the deliverer/developer . . . . .show me the contract you have that spells out the specifics of what you are to get, and i'll rally to your side.

Yes, exactly as you state, end result is that SP mode is necessarily towards the end of development.

 

I think there is a bit of misinterpretation on your part here as I specifically state that the locked bar is "tried and true, but boring" and nowhere do I state that any of the options I have now are satisfactory thus the implication that we DO need to fix it because it is broken (in my opinion). That is fine that you lost interest when I stated my dislike of the combat in the game, everyone will feel differently - to each his own - I especially stated this fact when I said they will never get 100% of the community to agree on one design philosophy for combat. I don't really feel like there is anything left for me to "get" when it comes to this system.. I feel as if I "get it" plenty, I'm just personally not a fan and that's all I was saying which to be quite honest I don't feel like there was anything wrong with expressing that view. You need to remember that dismissing the ideas of other people as wrong simply because you are of a differing opinion is no way to come into a discussion, I for one have no problem with the fact that you enjoy the system but at the end of the day I am more concerned where the majority of the community is at vs the minority, maybe the majority of people do like it and if that is the case then I will have to accept it but I still wanted to voice my opinion.

I agree with you on it needing some kind of tutorial and heck maybe that will help warm people up to it a bit more.

Thank you for this information Sindariya, I made sure to add annotations to the video explaining the change to locked combat mana cost and the slug system! I was not aware that you could lock skills to the bar in that manor using random system, I will have to give that a try and see if my opinion on it changes, thank you for calling that to my attention. I think the position of the bar however remains a sticking point because even if its at the top or the side of my screen I still feel too focused on that and removed from the actual combat. Could you elaborate on this keyboard way of doing the combos, I would LOVE to test this out and again see if it changes my opinion on the system. I think I tried pretty hard not to let general "bugs" creep into my opinion in the video, is there any specific instance of this you can cite? If you are talking about my gripes with the performance of the AI I don't think of that as a bug but rather the current state of the coding for AI. Please understand that the entire point of this video was not to focus on the aspects of the game that I love the most but more so to stir up conversation about the things that BOTHER me in the game. I did go out of my way to say that I like this game and I have faith that it can be a great product. I really look forward to doing a very (hopefully as unbiased as possible) in depth full "review" of the game once we are done with alpha and beta, that will definitely do a better job highlighting where the game shines.

Thank you for your wonderful feedback.

Thank you guys so much for having such a robust and varied discussion on these topics and for pointing out some areas where I was plain wrong, this is exactly what I would have wanted and I am happy to see we have such a mature and diverse community here full of passionate opinions.

 

And by contract, I don't mean what was listed on the Kickstarter page as 'goals' or 'intents', i mean the fine print of where you made your online payment. . . . . that is what will spell out what you are receiving for your money. Anything else is not legally binding.

 

Thanks for taking my advices to your heart. To comment on your try to start a discussion. You should focus on one point of the game, here combat. It confused me, that you started with quests, than 30min combat, than crafting. To keep focus to one topic keeps up a discussion.

 

@leilakin

Thank you for your feedback and the invites to such events! I would like to add that I was not trying to imply the world map was a "single player" experience but merely that it was more akin to something you would find in a single player RPG and not in an MMORPG thus the duality of the games design and confusion for those wanting simply one or the other. As far as the quest system goes, I agree with you that we do not need ? ! or any such system in the game, discovery is as you put it allot of fun. I would like to direct your attention to a good example of a quest system in an MMORPG in "The Secret World" I don't know if you have ever played that game but the way it handles quests is better than anything that has released in the last 10 years or more. I'm not saying it's perfect but the sheer amount of variety it offers, the challenge and the story delivery makes it a system that is more engaging than anything the other guys have put out in recent memory, it is the perfect example of a single player RPG somehow also being an MMORPG. As it stands right now there is no such variety within the quests of shroud, I simply walk to an npc find out his job and complete this job and the parameters for completion are from a very very small laundry list of things to do. I will either A) kill something B) Talk to someone C) Go somewhere or D) Deliver something - along with any combination of those 4 things. My argument for the quest system is simply that there needs to be allot more depth and variety especially when I think to myself that this is wanting to be an amazing single player game.

 

What do you think would happen if a developer advertizes a game during a Kickstarter campaign as being one thing and then they deliver something else? Would everyone be happy? Would the press congratulate the devs? I don't think so.

 

I agree with you completely, however, being happy and being legal are two different things. I'm not arguing that you don't deserve what you want, I'm just saying that they are only legally obligated to whatever is legally binding, which should be specified where you gave your money. If they were only worried about the happiness of the players as opposed to realizing Richard's internal vision, they would have designed a game with more mass appeal to make the maximum number of players happy. That is clearly not his vision.

 

According to the kickstarter website they are required to fulfill their promises.

 

Kickstarter projects are different. The difference in development between Pillars of Eternity and Shroud e.g. is, that Pillars had a fixed concept right from the beginning, Obsidian want to make an isometric Baldur's Gate RPG style game. Point! I believe there was no clear and fixed concept for Shroud. During the Kickstarter campaign it was sold as a spiritual successor of the Ultima series and Ultima Online. A game, which should satisfy the Ultima single player veterans as well as the UO people. Not a MMO, but a game you can play with some friends or some other people. Because the lack of a fixed - and public - concept, the people tried to push the game in their preferred direction. According to my perception the design concept of Shroud is user driven in large parts. The most vocal people define the direction of the game. And as time went by the direction of the game seems to change more and more into a MMO with a story. But unfortunately some of the UO people are still not satisfied. Not to mention the Ultima single player fans. Maybe this is the problem of this game which tries to satisfy too much distinct tastes.

I wish Portalarium would have a very clear and fixed concept from the beginning like Obsidian's Pillars. I had great hopes in Shroud, now I'm not sure. I've nearly lost my interest in playing the alphas. However - I will wait until until release. As we all know the story - this is the part I'm interested in - will come just with the publish. And I wish Shroud all the best because I'm still a big Ultima fan.

 

The whole thing was vague rune. Both sides of the fence are unhappy.

 

I'm not denying that, I'm asking if you can point me to the 'official' list of what exactly that includes which details what those promises are. I wasn't around for kickstarter, i'd like to see it.

 

If they can make combat (a lot) better, that might go a long way towards winning back some disillusioned backers.

 

just goto the kickstarter page, look at all the bullet points and stretch goals reached...those are promises.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/portalarium/shroud-of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/description

 

Great Video...I watched it all too.

Agree on much of the combat opinions you mentioned. FYI They did eliminate the focus penalty on locked bars now.

Swords/Melee combat works pretty good. Try going out in cloth and casting spells...That is where combat is seriously broken for me. Distance spells are pretty much worthless. Mages ended up fighting as melee in cloth...Not good. I hope they give magic love and allow us to play in 2 magic trees (rather than 5+) soon otherwise my long haired, long bearded old man will be wearing plate and using polearm skills only.

 

Thanks for the link, what part of it do you feel you are not getting?

 

I don't know what we will be getting by release, but as you can see there are a whole lot of things not implemented yet, or even discussed at this point.

All I'm saying is they are pretty much bound by those things. Is it legally bound? I have no idea...but it would be pretty much bad faith not to. For the record I haven't said they are intending to do that...I just think they have a long way to meet those goals and the new goals they added for themselves after kickstarter, things that we didn't back or ask for.

 

I agree it would be bad faith to not deliver on the items on that list, but I don't see anything on that list that is undeliverable. I don't think they are obligated to deliver 'only' what is on the list, any additional development is just cream on top right?

But based on your earlier post:

I'm not seeing what it is about the current development that doesn't offer exactly what they promised, that is troubling you. What specifically have they changed that goes against the kickstarter? I don't want you to leave, but I don't understand what is upsetting you.