Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

After reading this thread, I'm amazed that the devs would want to take control away from the players. I thought when I originally read about 'decks' it was like in TSW - you have so many slots for active/passive abilities. You have to decide from the 550 or so abilities which you're going to use and when you use them. But I get to CHOOSE what to put in that deck and when I get to use it. Not a randomly generated chance with the AI will deciding which are available to use! Seriously? If that's the case, that's a bit to Pokemon for my tastes. If I want to do that I can go play the Battle Pet mini game in WoW. You hit me, I hit you, you hit me, I hit you... that sounds too much like a turn-based game, which is NOT what I was expecting SoTA to be. It's not fluid.

Different combat types have been tried in GW2, AoC, TSW, etc., but getting good at any skill and knowing when to use them takes practice and training, but it's MY choice which one's to start with, not the AI.

Almost any game I play, I set my abilities on certain key binds (whenever possible), so I know if I hit #8, it's a heal (or anything remotely resembling one), #1 is my opening attack, #9 interrupt or whatever CC ability I have. Not guess what you get to use, or 'surprise' guess what's in slot 1 now! I don't want to be constantly looking at the UI to see what's available. Sounds like too much staring at my UI not the fight (PvE or PvP).


Vyrinor you asked PvPers why they'd want to play SoTA if they don't want to try something different.

For me, it's going to be an interesting world (new places to explore, crafting, etc.) or I wouldn't have backed the game.

I like Planetside 2 (full pvp all the time) but even hardcore PvPers do enjoy other parts of gaming, just PvP is what they prefer. In WoW raiders like raiding, doesn't mean they don't do other things, but give them a choice they raid. Same with PvP. It's not static or scripted. It's your abilities - good or bad - against your opponent or their team. I'm not talking about OP people ganking newbies and corpse camping/griefing players (those people I don't get), I'm talking about fun PvP where you're fighting skilled players/teams. I'm not necessarily good at it, but it's an aspect of MMO's I really like. In fact I congratulate those that kick my butt (usually while swearing under my breathe), as they know when the best time to interrupt, hit, feint or whatever which is not scripted and random. I don't know when they'll use what. I have to decide in PS2 when to pull out a pistol or throw a grenade or knife my opponent, not see what I might have available. Those are my abilities, I have to figure out the best time to use them. I might guess, "I do a they'll do b" but there are no guarantees and it's fast and hectic. It's my thinking against theirs (even in large group battles), it's not scripted and a rotation doesn't necessarily work. They have a healer tucked safely in the back, you need your wits and a coordinated effort to get them out of the game, not random chance skills..

But to say I have a deck of five abilities and my opponent does, and we don't have much control (or it's turn based??) as to which abilities I can use, IDK, that will ruin the immersion and doesn't sound fun in the least.

I do appreciate the dev team is trying to make something fresh and different, but taking control from the players and giving it to the machine doesn't necessarily seem the best choice imho.

 

I'd like to add some more to my previous post.
I think a system where you build a deck and plan your spells ahead would be suitable for some type of magic - but not for combat moves and such. Like the wizard in DnD who has to memorize spells.

A lot of RANDOMNESS can be added to combat in many other ways, tho.
Standing on sand? Have the option to kick some sand into your opponents face, losing some focus and losing some dexterity while you're doing it but getting the chance to blind them.
We could come up with a ton of stuff like that, but it's up to the dev team to implement these things into the game.

Rage. A simple berserker's rage like in many games, when you're enraged you get random special abilities becoming avialable to you for a couple of seconds or something like this.

Some spell that has the chance to absorb an enemy spell. And sometimes the absorbed energy would be enough to let you randomly cast some spell that you might not have in your spellbook.

Parrying with weapons and shields should be made random. Couter attacking can sometimes happens randomly too.

A special ability that let's you counter-attack more often the more wounded you are.

We can come up with a lot of excellent stuff that will make PvP more vivid and random without falling into the horrible deck idea I listened about in the video.

 

MMMMMM yes and no. If the opportunities are ones they assign and random, and not ones I create myself, then we still have that issue. Specifically, a surprise strike should be somethign I get a chance at when flanking an opponent... I'm cool with that. Just randomly saying "Ok, now you get to use heal" is harder to swallow.

Additionally, it does lead me to the question of where are all my other opportunities I'm chosing to ignore because I want to focus only on a couple opportunities?

And in the next breath, during the Kickstarter RG and companie promised a return to old school role-playing games. Honestly, I want the next big thing by returning to what made the old games better all those years ago. We've strayed to far from what was once fantastic by doing exactly what this system does... automating decisions and taking control away from the player, and not leaving them to thier own devices in a hostile world.

So, lets break down what I'm proposing here with where we get our focus from.

With focus, you're looking for opportunities to exploit and waiting for the right moment to strike. This still isn't 'twitch' gaming, because it's not a quick time event. Just waiting for your focus to get high enough to perform a manuever or spell. Some will require more focus than others, and so if you wait until you have 15 focus, you could do a sunder armor for 5 and then take advantage of it with a power strike for 10. If you wanted to just do sunder armor when you get to 5, that's cool too. Your next basic attacks will still enjoy the benefit of the attack, but by the time you get back to 10 focus, it will have worn off, and you'll have missed your opportunity.

Depending on each foe's tactics, this could be a good, or bad, idea. If someone's picking away at you, distracting you, your focus could be dropping so fast you can't build up to a big attack, even though they're not doing much damage. So, maybe you have to take advantage of some of your lower skill specials, because you simply can't build up to a big powerful attack with as fast as they're moving.

Now, focus build would happen overtime once you're in combat. Faster if you pick a target, but if it drops, or you switch targets, you'll lose some of your focus.

If you hold still, your focus can rise faster, if you are moving and repositioning, or worse running, it goes slower, or even down.

Anyway, I prefaced with that, to show what an anti-virtue player would do that would be different.

Ideas for agression:

First, getting hit would ADD to agression. So that guy doing lots of little attacks? That's just riling them up for one big crushing attack.

Heavy armror might reduce it's gain because you're not as pumped about the battle. You feel safer.

Moving, charging attacks, would add to the count as well, so focused fighters would want to contain and control their position.

Tying it into the virutes, a high honor (or it's new namesake) would add to focus, but it being low (to negative) might adjust how fast agression builds.

With focus, a killing blow would lose some focus as you'd switch targets, with agression it might add to your rage as you fill with blood lust.


The thing to notice about all that stuff is it requires a player to be aware of it, but not forcing them to micro-manage it. It just happens, and they can take advantage of it, so new players aren't feeling like they need to learn it in depth right away, but advanced players will learn to take advantage of it.

Easy to learn, hard to master. The key to good design.

This is pretty much first pass ideas. I could break out some numbers, even do a quick Pen and paper proof of concept if it's something people are actually interested in.

 

Isn't this the first time the combat was mentioned?

(Direct Time: 40m 13s)
youtube.com/watch?v=RzQdey9hv24&feature=share&t=40m13s

This was about 40 hours from the KS close. I still prefer the way Chris described it. He says something about LB talking about it earlier, so I wasn't sure if there are eariler mentioning of combat.

 

I think saying "taking away choice" is a little misleading at worst, and a very shortsighted description at best. You may have a great deal of choice to build a set of skills that counter opponents and compliment what YOU want to do. Did you ever use an item in any game with a percentage chance of return when used? Maybe a sword that increased strength now and then, or a ring that put up a small shield around you? Did any of that "take away your choice" or was it more a part of YOUR choice in what gear to wear for the abilities you wanted to achieve?

I think what they will end up with is a mix between the two. You will probably have a set of skills/hotkeys and then a set of things to put into a deck mechanic. You could build a high defense deck, or a high fire damage, or healing auras. Who knows...but I think it is an innovative approach to something new. After all, there are several other games that have these set buttons and people are playing them less and less, so it can't be THAT great of a system.

 

Also. By proper balancing we could make ALL spells useful in a way.

In UO durng different eras of the game we had many useless spells - mindblast for example was unusable.

But with proper balancing all spells will be useful, some by themselves, others - combined with some other spell.
That alone is enough to make combat interesting. In PvP it's not just button mashing - it's art. It's battle.

As to making PvEing more interesting..I dnno. If they make the monsters too smart, PvE-casuals will be complaining that taking down a dragon is no easier than taking down a PvPer in the field. Pls nerf, takes too much button mashing and too much time.
Hmm.

 

Megh. Card games pls go.
This is serius stuff here, we wanna battle, not play card games. I want my fireballs ready and hot when I need them, not when it "procs". I want my Flame arrow avialable 24/7 exactly for that moment when the bastard is trying to teleport away with 5 hp left. I don't want my Mind blast casting itself when I'm fighting an opponent with high INT.
I wanna compete.

Just a rant

 

This brings up a great point man...and I'm not trying to be combatative when I say this but it is a feeling that gets fleshed out. Why should what you want to do take precedence over what other people want to do? And of course, the reverse is true, why should the fact that I think it will be good mean we should give it a try? Whose opinion is better, or right? Is it the squeaky wheel gets the grease, or whoever pays the most gets the say? No one wants to go down those roads I don't think, so let me bring up a few points I find interesting:

1. Something makes you want to play this game and not all the others that are out there that have the exact combat system you are describing.

Why is that...I am not sure. Maybe you got bored with them, or maybe you still play them and this is the latest thing you want to try. The reason will differ, but the devs seem pretty set on making this different. What you just described almost sounds like the last things Devs want to do. I am not trying to speak for them, just saying it sounds to me like a WoW clone (you even used Mind Blast, so I figure you were a Shadow/Disc priest (Warsong myself)) as an example. Over and over again they say they don't want that, so if people are really wanting that...well...I dunno.

2. You again use examples that may not be applicable, almost as worst case scenarios.

Follow me here...you specifically mention casting Mind Blast on an opponent with higher int b/c that's what "proc'ed." Now I know and you know that if you do that, you are the one getting hurt, but you're using it as an example of what could happen when something is randomized in combat. But what if the game mechanics aren't like that, what if there is a set of hotkey'ed controlled options AND a series of procs (offensive and defensive) in a deck like format. Or, what if the game is smart enough to know what type of opponent you are fighting and allow multiple options with a skill? If we want to play the worst scenario game we can keep doing it over and over again but it doesn't really advance the argument.

I fully see you guys' points and hesitations, I am just saying that it shouldn't be written off to this extent when people haven't seen it.

 

Just putting in my 2 cents, LB, Star, that Sun Tzu quote? The random force that destroys your plan IS your enemy. I've never had a sequence of buttons that I push every fight. I HAVE had the knowledge that if I see an opening to tag a distant enemy, I reach my pinky finger over to the 1 key. To have such an option become random, so that when I see an opening appear I have no idea if I'll have a power available to take advantage of it, that will SUCK. I've never seen anyone fighting who suddenly forgets his moves in PRACTICE fighting. I've seen a lot of people who suddenly found that what they wanted to do wasn't feasible because of their opponents moves, and then they picked something else. Just like any general guiding an army in the time of Sun Tzu would choose to react to the sudden changes in his opponents moves.

My take on the proposed card system is a simple divide. On the one hand, if it adds interesting fluctuations to the flow of battle, I like it. If on the other hand it takes away my ability to guide my character's actions, I hate it.

 

Thanks, no. This I can do myself. Don't need robots to make decisions instead of me, this aint the 24th century yet.

The only good use I see for a deck-based system is if we have two types of spells. The first kind is your ordinary spells that you can cast at any time. The second is special spells, that need preparation before being used.

So for example you have 10 slots and you can pick 10 spells out of the list of spells that need to be memorised before casting.
Or 5 slots. Whatever. So you gotta decide what you pick: the Observer ward spell that places a ward which can be used as a remote camera (and maybe requires a wooden stick and a glass ball as reagents) or you pick the "Sticks to snakes" spell and transform that orc spear you looted into a deadly mamba and let it crawl around the battlefield.

So you got all of them 50 spells from the spellbook + 5 slots for memorising special spells. As the game grows and more addons are released we could get more and more of those special spells, making combat and gameplay in general more diverse.

I think that PvP above all should be competitive, and thus void of all unnecessary randomness. Randomness is good only as an addition to the "normal"pvp. For example in UO this addition was the magic wands and jewelry you could carry. Teleport rings, heal wands, invis earrings etc.

 

Richard, I greatly appreciate your effort and that of your exceptional team. I'm actually becoming a huge fan of the combat "deck" (you're never getting away from this word now) concept, the more time I have to digest it. However, I've noticed a great deal of concern regarding the tone of the forums, from the community management team, the development team, and now you. See quote below...

Let me say first that I really do understand this concern. Unconstructive feedback is unconstructive...but it's also a more than a little subjective. One person's over the top "angry rampage" could be another person's great show of restraint considering what they actually wanted to say. I know that I've written a few things that have been misunderstood or taken to heart in ways I never intended. Discussing passonate subjects like SotA which also happen to be expensive hobbies for many of us is a difficult arena to "tone it down".

While I can certainly understand showing respect and considerate behavior for one another, I don't believe that should preclude people from being angry, espeically if they're angry. I would hope that you and your team would be capable and begrudgingly willing to roll with the punches in an effort to obtain real and meaningful feedback.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think the fact that so many have pledged so much, already speaks to the volumes of credit you have recieved. Now it's time to soak it all in, the good, the bad, the mild, the sometimes angry, and do what you guys do best...make it better.

 

Trapper wrote: >>Or, what if the game is smart enough to know what type of opponent you are fighting and allow multiple options with a skill? ... <<

Personally, I don't want the game deciding for me. While multiple options might be a great idea, it's not a turn-based game that I can sit and think about it. At least I hope that's not what it's turning into.

 

We are trading made up scenarios at this point. What I said was in direct response to something you proposed: what if Mind Blast procs and I am fighting an enemy with more Int. My point was not that the game was choosing for you, we were talking about proc abilities and what happens if an ability procs that is not best for the opponent you are fighting. We could literally do this all night, but it wouldn't do any good because we are both making assumptions that may be absolutely wrong.

I think you and I are on the same page here...because I have said that is what I THINK will happen over time. You are going to have set spells/abilities to use, and then you have the special combat abilities come in the deck format. It would be a hybrid of the two approaches, but maybe what they are thinking about all along?

 

I have to agree from the PvE side as well. For example I am currently playing dragon age 2 (shut up, I don't care if you hate it, I happen to enjoy it) and playing a mage. Now I have my normal staff attack which I yes spam, then I have currently 2 Ice spells and 2 fire spells. One Ice spell is a single target, second is an arc in front of me (close range), first fire spell is a small fire ball and second is a massive rain of fire.

So I wait for the boss monsters to cast the single target spell, I wait till monsters bunch up to cast the fire spells, I wait till I am being rushed to cast the ice spell.

All these spells are situationally dependend and the strategy is deciding if to use them now and risk the cooldown or hold off for a better shot. Ie they are EXACTLY the same sorts of decisions a REAL mage would have to make. They wouldn't be trying to look at the battle and then pulling magic cards out of there ass and trying to decide if they were apropriate to use or if to hold them while they vanish and are replaced by more. That is so far from realistic its not even on the same planet. To quote the spoony one "I've had acid flash backs which make more sense than that". Not to mention the compleate abandonment of the unobtrusive UI

I guess it doesn't matter. RG has obviously put his foot down over this but God its a stupid idea.

 

That is mischaracterization of what I said when taken out of context. The point was made specifically in response to "What if this ability procs that I can't use against this opponent." These worst case, made up scenarios to prove your point is not going to get us anywhere. I was not saying the game is CHOOSING what you are doing, rather I was saying that maybe that scenario he described, as it described, would never happen.

 

I guess everything has been said so fair. Now we can only wait for a response from the dev team.
Also I think my ideas in this thread are the best, give me free in-game gold and deer hides pls.

 

I think I'm going to wait and see what they have planned before I get worked up over it.
You guys are all assuming folks that have worked in the industry since it began can't come up with a system that works.
I want to see what they have up their sleeves.

 

Lots to respond here:

1. First of all, I find it funny that you qualify that you play Dragon Age 2 with "(shut up, I don't care if you hate it, I happen to enjoy it)." To end your post with "God its a stupid idea" is an interesting bookend. You haven't seen it, it hasn't been fully fleshed out, it hasn't been tried by anyone, but you know its stupid. Maybe some people would like it, maybe the majority. You may continue thinking its stupid because that's your perogative, but does it help discussion for us to mock the different viewpoints people have?

Oh, and Dragon Age 2 sucks.

J/k, I've never played.

2. Again, these are worst case scenarios being described to prove a point. You give us an example or four spells you have and how you use them, and if this type of combat goes into play it won't be like that. I will continue to stress, we don't know exactly how its going to work. If we want to come up with worst case scenarios to prove our points we aren't going to get anywhere.

3. You and several others are comparing what is being described against a set, push this button get this result type of combat that you have become accustomed to. Not all games were ever like that. When I played D&D, I rolled to hit, rolled to see what I hit, and depending on bonus rolls (or getting doubles, etc.) I got to choose some bonus abilities. How I dispersed these bonus abilities depended on how we were doing as a group, maybe I needed more CC at the time, or defense, or attacks. This was not "less fun" for me than any push a button get this result game, it was much more dynamic and fun to be quite honest with you.

So again, let's be fair with our comparisons and wait until we see it is all I'm asking.

 

Firstly that is in regard to the story for the most part, people just don't seem to like DA2 compared to DAO. I like the story.

My issue isn't with randomness in the hit, I have said repeatedly if you want to make things random then critical hits\misses give you that

My concern is how the UI is going to be handled for the most part. RG has said quite a few times they want the UI to be minimalistic and the demo shows that. This though means randomness not in the hit or miss but in what your keys will do and THATS what I have an issue with. So instead of the UI fading into the background you now have to focus on it to know what your keys will actually do.

Think about that for example driving. There is randomness in driving, in what other cars, and people and animals and whatnot do. So you focus on that. Now think about what it would be like if the all YOUR inputs did what they are suggesting and kept changing as well. In fact I can tell you what will happen because a plane did exactly that, the rudder controls reversed on a jet, the jet crashed and that was ONE input. If all of them started changing all the time either you are going to spend the whole time looking at that instead of whats going on, or your not going to know whats going on so its just going to be pushing buttons at random

Anyway whats the point in arguing about this anymore, RG has said he wants this and there will be enough people who will support it no matter what it does for the game

 

Its so early days yet lets give this a go. We are a long way off release. I have complete confidence in the dev team to deliver a great combat system eventually