Starting Paths *spoilers*

good point lol

 

Noooo very bad point . Trust me.

 

Seems like this system is going to be forcing many skills that people do not want. Why not just go to a skill cap and let people have different paths?

 

BUT I NEED PEOPLE TO NEED ME!!!!

Because for some silly reason they want a soft cap system. There are a few of us that much prefer a different design style, but we'll see what happens once everything is implemented down the road.

 

How about allow fully customize as an option like how UO does their character creation?

 

I like this a lot. I would most definantly be on board with this being implemented

 

The only way I could see truth/love/courage choices making sense with character creation is if you tie them to something beyond particular builds.

So let's say you get to choose a starting skill area. Then T/L/C could relate to an initial stat boost (although relating love to dexterity is kind of strange at best). But an initial stat boost really is best chosen according to combat class.

Perhaps T/L/C could give you other simple bonuses... courage gives you a special weapon suited to combat class, truth give you a few additional skill levels, love gives you additional starting gold.

There may be other ways to spin this - small bonus passives? Truth gives you an XP boost for a limited time. Courage gives you a damage bonus for a limited time. Love gives you a gathering bonus/transaction bonus for a limited time.

There are probably many other ideas like this. The point is each of the combat "classes" could be infused by the virtues in different way. A fire mage could be focused on truth, love, or courage and thus would have minor variations.

 

Could it be possible that these weapons are tied to the virtues some how? For example we have heard of artifacts in the past such as the
Heart of Sorrow
and
Scepter of Dread.
These represent 2 of the anti virtues I think (guess). Now we may not know what artifacts represent the virtues but maybe they could be weapons like the bow and the sword. Just spitballin here.

 

I find it easier to think of it the opposite cup-is-half-full way. The Avatar is 'forced' to do nothing. The Avatar is given a few 'bonus' skills to start, which can be ignored for another weapon (and even discarded later at a trainer).

In the big scheme of things, if someone plays a character for years and years in this game, the first hour it took to train different low tier skills to 30 will not be much remembered.

 

It's probably the first hour of play that defines who's most likely to play the game for years and years.

 

That's a good point.

But pondering this topic more, I believe we overlook a key SOTA game design element by wanting to change this system.

Our conversation on the starting experience often boils down to this: 1) Give us skills we choose, 2) Give us weapons we want, 3) And give it to us now at the start. Because we don't want to 'waste' an hour backtracking to train something else. I offer, in a friendly way, that we might unpack dialog like that more to get to its root, and see it as a desire for 'instant gratification'. That's fair, its a game. And some games cater to this by allowing us to make choices before ever playing a game to get the set up we want right at the start.

But I think SOTA is trying to be different. Instead, it is saying: 1) Choices are required, 2) Choices have ramifications, 3) We may not always like the immediate outcome of our choices, but 4) with a little dedication to our true passion or purpose, we can overcome those small obstacles. And indeed I have understood RG to say that he wants choices to matter, wants characters to be defined by virtues and choices with them, and even has an Oracle in game to help us reflect on our choices. The starting scene choices set that up.

By granting a 'blind' outcome in return for a set of honest choices, the game is setting up a theme and expectation for players from the very start that their choices matter in this game and there may be more to a choice that originally meets the eye. That is the higher game design purpose of the scene. That skill points are awarded (for no effort) is just an insignificant, mechanical thing to help demonstrate this higher meta-point. They serve no other purpose. A character doesn't need them to start.

 

Which I agree with, 100%. The problem is, if we answer honestly its more than possible we start with skills unrelated to what we want, and have to spend quite a bit of time "fixing" this by playing in a style we don't like. For newcomers, this might even drive them off from playing.

In the Ultima games where it mattered, the gypsy questions set your character class and your starting area. So I can see why it is doing something similar here. However, this is not the same for a number of reasons:

• There were more starting choices in Ultima. With 8 classes, there is a lot of overlap. Everyone had a strong point, most had at least some magic, and unless you specifically wanted something (full magic, as a Mage; or full non-magic, as a Fighter) it wasn't a big deal what you got.
• There was a lot of leeway in the classes. A Fighter was just as good with a halberd or mace as he was with a sword. We don't have that here; you have to be specific. Similarly, a Mage could cast any spell, but here you start with focus in a school of magic in which you might have no interest.
• The classes in Ultima were linked to traditions, which you could learn about by reading the manual and lorebooks, and which carried over from game to game. We don't have much in the way of lore, yet, and there is no reason to think that a ranger is going to recognize Soltown as their home. There is no investment.

I'd love for the character creation to move to something more like Ultima. Ask the questions, compare T/L/C answers, but allow all 3 to be valid choices. The combo gets you one of 8 "classes", with varied abilities. Don't put any of them high; say 20 in 4-5 skills, a couple Rank 2s at 10, and every other lower skill at 10. You can start doing ANYTHING. Put each weapon type on the weapon racks, and let the player choose one (the others disable after the first is picked up, and note the choice in the Journal and Tip window). Introduce a trainer early on, perhaps Edvard can do this; this is especially important when there is a "forget" option to retrain/recover invested xp.

The biggest thing is to build the starting areas as the center of those classes. Fighters, Soldiers and Knights go to Resolute, so make sure there are NPCs of those classes to welcome them. Rangers and Bards go to Soltown, and would probably like to see more of them around. Mages, Sorcerers and Druids go to Aerie; a college there would be great to find. Put this type of information into the lore, make those who choose that path feel welcome to it. Otherwise, they are going to constantly wonder what they did "wrong".

(Tagging @Lum)

 

I have to agree. I like the fact that 'choices matter', but I'd also much prefer if we were allowed to make 'educated choices'. Give us a story leading up to the questions. If the questions being answered lead to different skills based on the principals, then teach us how the principals are related to these skills before asking the questions. If the relationship can't be explained in lore or story, then it's just bad game design.

I'm a huge fan of the virtues and how they work in the Ultimas, and I'd love to see this connection in SotA, but it needs to be intuitive. If it isn't intuitive without explanation, then we need an explanation so that it will be intuitive as we are forced to answer the questions.

On the one hand, I don't want to just answer the questions without thought, trying to get the skills I want, on the other hand, if the virtuous questions are linked to skills, I'd really like that link to be clear and make intuitive sense before I'm being asked the questions.

 

To be clear, I don't think it all needs to be spelled out in-game before you speak to Arabella. It can be in the manual. Just reward people that do the research, and make it a valid choice instead of blind luck. There is nothing in SotA that says Love means Ranger, or why they would go to Soltown (etc, etc.)

 

I agree. And I agree with Andaluz that choices matter. If however, there is no rationale as to why choices lead to particular outcomes, then choices really don't matter. As Browncoat Jayson says, a little additional explanation would help.

But on a deeper level, the meaning of virtue has resonance with how actions are performed, and not necessarily particular actions themselves. It takes a big stretch of an explanation to come up with a reason as to why those focused on the virtue of love prefer to fight with a bow and arrow. Sure, they can leave the choices as they are now, but those looking for a rich RPG experience might find it a little disappointing.

It's not about getting something you don't want and then having to change, it's about the quality of an adventuring experience. I can be forced to accept something I didn't intend when the story makes it perfectly clear as to why it happened. If there are too many non-sequiturs, it tends not to be the kind of RPG I want to play.

 

I really think that the system in games like Mount and Blade where it uses a character background are more intuitive for new users that don't want to get bogged down by digging through a manual for a game that they have never played before.

 

Aye, very true

 

While I think OP's suggestion is creative and a useful contribution to the debate, my personal view is that your answers to the questions of Truth, Love and Courage should only affect your starting quest and location. I cannot see any logical reason why they would have anything whatsoever to do with your initial loadout and skill choices. Why are mages considered inherently more truthful, tanks more courageous or archers more loving?

It won't happen (*sigh*), but I would love to see new players given the ability to choose their own skills and loadout completely independently of their quest line and starting location, and without reference to their answers to the starting questions. Because that is not the case, I'll be choosing courage because I prefer the role of tank, and I think a lot of others will be making similar calculations. That is a pity.

I understand that the main reason this is not done is due to the difficulty of creating tutorials. You know, those pop-up message things that many people click through. Perhaps the answer is for you to be given two books on your arrival - one on skills and one on weapons. Books that are placed in your inventory, and that you can refer back to at any time. Books that contains all the information that would otherwise appear in pop-up tutorials, but expanded for every weapon and skill. That way the user can look at what is relevant and ignore the rest, instead of restricting user choices at the start of the game in order to reduce the number of different pop up tutorials that must be created.

The player can then be directed to a table displaying a large array of different weapon types, from which they can choose whatever weapon they prefer. They can then talk to a basic trainer who will help them allocate a fixed number of skill points in any way they choose, ready for their arrival at Highvale, Blood River or Solace Bridge.

tl:dr
- pop up tutorial requirements are the main reason weapons and skills are tied to Truth, Love and Courage
- we can avoid that connection by dropping the pop up weapon tutorials and giving each player a book on weapons and a book on skills, and telling the player to refer to them
- unlike pop up tutorials, books can be referred back to at any time, at the player's convenience
- by doing that we can let people choose any weapon, and allocate an initial set of initial skill points however they wish