Stealing/Theft/Hiding/Stealth

Honestly, the potential for classic UO-style full item loot is the only reason why I've taken my MMO boots off the wall.

If there is a remote chance this will be full item loot, expect Lord Kelsar to go in full poop sock mode/GAME ON!

 

I'd say its a safe bet it will go full loot-ish, it just wont be full loot for every single player you might encounter (online), nor will it be PvP if certain people do not wish to play that way.

The fact is, the days of all out anarchistic behavior are greatly diminished, much like the wild west, when talking about a company that needs/wants to retain a large player base of money spenders.

Even in modern games, PvP exists, looting exists, but there are options to opt out or in, because you need to play all-around the market to maximize the money flow.

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

Dashed! That is what you did to my hopes just then, thanks pal - thanks.

If there isn't a remote chance for players to earn the old style Karma/Fame I will truly be sad.

 

With Selective Multiplayer, I think it will be full loot for every single player you encounter, because every single player you encounter will have flagged themselves for Open PvP/Full Loot. You won't see those who have not.

 

Which is kind of the arguments going around. A) we dont know if those flags exist, and B) it splits the community like Trammel since you just filter away anyone not setup exactly like you.

The second point raises the question: They why complicate the setup? If there is a 50/50 split, make two servers, and back round we go into a circle.

What I "get" from RG vision since the start is not wanting to shard the world community that way, and that you could still have a mix of both + other variants populated in world, but still effectively be playing how they want.

I thought it was a stretch but a good idea to attempt, I am eagerly awaiting any information on how they plan to mingle those ideas since we have zero feedback on the system so far.

 

There are 25000 contributors. Who knows, there may be millions of players. Do you want to have the opportunity to see all of them? Not I. If Selective Multiplayer winnows that down to a more manageable number of people who's interests most closely match mine, no one will be more thankful than I. I remember well IronForge Bank in WoW. No thank you.

Then you get the problem with multiple servers/shards. I have a friend on one shard, and I'm on another. Never the twain shall meet. That's a bad idea, if it's not necessary, and with Selective Multiplayer, it's not necessary.

 

I play UOF right now. I think the thieves are totally OP. However I do agree with them that your stuff should be at some risk.

The argument for and against are quite passionate. In this case I had an idea so I'm going to throw it out there.

Non consumable items that are stolen get a "stolen" status. They can not be sold to NPC vendors. A thief can sell it to a thief guild fence for a small, very small percentage of the value...say 2-5 percent. The item then disappears forever. I think this would reduce the number of thieves to those that are doing it for RP not for money.

Anyone other than a member of the thieves guild wearing, using or in possession of a stolen item is flagged and is open to attack by all. Anyone entering a city/town/village with stolen items is "caught" by the guards and pays a fine (value of the stolen item +100% penalty)? If they can't pay they will be arrested and do the time. So the time would scale against what they owe. Once the time is done the do not owe any money.

Thieves are not welcome to use normal banks. They have a thief guild bank that is located outside protected areas. Thieves too can now risk being PKd and having their acquired items taken.

The only way for a non-thief to get the "stolen" status off an item is to reduce it back to its component parts. (Melt armor, cut up leather etc)

So you could steal a whole bunch of stuff and keep it in your house and no one would know. You take it out to use and there is risk.

Ok. That is it. Fire away.

 

Maybe my memory is a bit off, so please correct me if I am wrong! But I think it was bit different than just 2 minutes ...

If I remember it correct, there were four possible outcomes for a stealing attempt:

1) Successful stealing - not discovered
- the item moved to the thiefs backpack
- the thiefs flag remained blue to the world
- the thiefs flag switched to permagrey for the thiefs victim

2) Successful stealing - discovered
- the item moved to the thiefs backpack
- the thiefs flag switched grey to the world for 2 minutes
- the thiefs flag switched to permagrey for the thiefs victim

3) Unsuccessful stealing - not discovered
- the item remained in the victims bag
- the thiefs flag remained blue to the world

4) Unsuccessful stealing - discovered
- the item remained in the victims bag
- the thiefs flag switched grey to the world for 2 minutes

So if a thief was discovered, everyone was free to attack him for the next two minutes. Which to my mind corresponds pretty well with a "real world" scenario, if you observe someone stealing you need to be fast to catch him in the act. If you are not the victim and you did not catch the thief red-handed your time was over after 2 minutes. Well, if you witnessed stealing you could remember the name of the thief, knowing that he cant give murdercounts you could kill him outside city borders whenever you wanted. This is given that no disguise-kit was used by the thief.

Given that you were the victim of a successful thiefing attempt the thief flagged permagrey to you. Which means that even if the thief appears to be flagged blue, you were free to attack him anytime and anywhere, as soon as an attack was initiated the thief turned grey again. This was always a bit risky if I remeber it correct, because the permaygrey flag was removed on death. And it was very unattractive to figures this out within the town guard area.

I dont say the original UO thieving system was perfect, but to my mind it was the best I have ever seen until now.

---
Edit: found a nice link about thief protection in the old times ...

http://uo.stratics.com/content/guides/thiefproof.shtml

 

And another thought that has not yet been discussed here ...

Thiefing was a pretty valid option in pvp fights as well!

I guess everyone from the old times remembers these nasty disarm thiefs!

"Hah this guy does not even wear an armour! I will beat him in 2 seconds with my brandnew power-axe!"

*disarm*
*you realize someone stealing from you*
*power axe gone*

"DAMN!"

Haha, that was so funny times! One time I tried to fight such a guy three times in a row, until I realized that the outcome will only be more lost weapons. I never attacked this guy again and rather kept a solid distance as soon as I saw him.

 

1 correct
2 correct, but I'm not sure about the perma gray. It may have been implemented differently on Siege Perilous.
3 correct
4 correct

It's obviously been a while, but I do remember seeing piles of bodies around the Brit Bank, all belonging the same thief or a couple of thieves who try to steal, fail, get guard whacked, run to the town healer for a res, and then run back to the bank for another bite of the apple. That is the bad game design I am talking about. Instead, after having been guard whacked once, they should have had something like a persistant 8 hour criminal record so that if the res'ed in town, they'd get guard whacked again, repeatedly until they left town, got a res from a wandering healer, and then stayed on the run until their flag expired. And no waiting the time out as a ghost, either. Time only elapses while alive.

 

I never had a thief on SP so I dont know, my memories are from Europe server.

I bet everyone can recall the piles of bodies at West Brit Bank. Fun times!

I got two thoughts on this one:

1) My first point is concerning overall game mechanics. I totally agree that the original mechanics described by you were not perfect. If you are in a guarded area, constantly flagging yourself grey by stealing, it should definetly lead to harder punishment than just being guardwhacked and receiving a two minutes timer until you can reseruct at town healer again. Maybe some kind of temporary city ban could easily solve this problem. Lets say, if you are guardwhacked more than 2 times in 10 minutes you receive a ban and cant enter that city for maybe 30 or 60 minutes.

2) Second point is concerning general requirements for players and a minimum level of common sense. I mean, who was stupid enough to bank at West Brit Bank? It took me one or two days to figure out that this is not a nice environment for banking! So I moved over to East Brit Bank, later to Moonglow and Skara, that was really relaxed banking sessions. I hardly ever saw a thief there or got myself into any trouble while banking. Maybe it sounds a bit harsh but, if someone was stupid enough to lose valuable stuff due to banking at West Brit Bank, than he does not deserve any better!

 

I always banked at the West Brit Bank, but then I had developed a high degree of 'detect hidden'. As a KGB Knight, it was my duty to confront these criminals, and if there wasn't a guild function going on, I would stealth into Britain, stand on top of the town cryer, and used 'detect hidden' to reveal all the flagged thieves so they would be guard whacked. When they stopped coming over to my side of the bank, I'd stealth over to the other side of the bank and repeat the process. The piles get ever deeper until they would give it up as a bad proposition and they moved on.

Fun times, indeed.

 

Yep you were perma even if completely successful on regular shards. I like the idea of the persistent criminal record flag you suggested and I hope something like that is implemented. It would be a nice way to separate the no-talent WBB thieves/lemmings from the rest of us

BTW Owain did you only play SP? I seem to remember some KGB on Pacific.

 

A better deterrent is
1) cut off their hands
2) banned from the realm

Simple.

 

The KGB started on Pacific upon initial release, but I was on Napa Valley in a different Anti-PK guild. That guild collapsed, and when SP opened, I emigrated where I found and joined the KGB, where I have been ever since.

 

Not sure if my memories are correct, but now that you mention it I think I can recall KGB overrunning our Blackoak Brigands gang on SP several times?
I think you did often accompany with another Anti-PK guild? It's a shame I cant recall the name ... this times are so long gone ...

 

Both hands at once? Isn't that a bit harsh?

 

Indeed. Temporary Hex Banishment (or Temporary Location/Region Banishment) is a great mechanic. Worked well in MUD's back in the early 90's, and would work extremely well in SotA as a consequence for a wide variety of actions.

The best part is, you can immediately go and play in the 4799 other hexes that are available. It's only that one that you failed to win, or failed to steal, or failed to succeed at "whatever" that you are prevented from re-entering, temporarily. It also prevents any negative social interaction, should that potentially be part of the mechanic.

Discussed more here and here. Could also apply to a wider range of player activities.

 

Nice ideas indeed! I would definitely support most of your points. Especially I like the idea of "Temporary Hex Banishment" which also to my mind could be used in a large variety of situation!

- As you stated it's very suitable for PvP if "death needs to simulated", I like this concept much more than for example statloss in faction battles.
- I think it is very suitable to control thiefs in towns and guarded areas, caught red-handed will yield a city-ban of 30-60 minutes.
- It can be used for PK and Anti-PK punishment as well, if you reach a certain positive or negative Karma-level you are not allowed to visit some places anymore.
- It might be used to create "Noobie-zones", lets assume there is something like a "new" status for the first two days, so only new players could enter certain areas.
- ...

Though, what I dont agree with are thieving related Hex-Bans for one rl week, to my mind everything that exeeds 24h is a bit much ...

*thumbs up for those ideas*

 

I thought it was funny when the guards caught you stealing in town they killed you on the spot. That was some of the hardest laughing I ever did in UO, not to mention when people would start looting, then turn grey then get killed and it became a massive pile of bodies. I would literally fall off of my seat laughing!!!