Stealing/Theft/Hiding/Stealth

Bad guys? That is what the NPC and monsters are for

Diablo III? Sorry, I don't play Diablo. Never have, never will.


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NPC monsters are no challenge. You just can't recreate human adaptability.

And lots of people want to be the bad guys, and by definition, they can't be NPCs... sooooo.... there has to be bad guys.

 

NPC monsters *can* be a challenge, it just requires the devs to program hard monsters. I've seen human adaptability copy the flavor of the month build or fail utterly to read the powers they are failing to use far too many times to revere it.

A lot of people want to rob my apartment and steal my entertainment center, that doesn't mean I should be sympathetic to them. There really don't HAVE to be PC bad guys, it's an option, and that option does appear to be on the slate to be in this game.

 

Stealing didnt really do me any good ever, you cant really get ahold of anything valuable. One real hardcore "theif" in UO once told me that most of the "stealing" he did involved being sneaky with hiding and stealth. Pickpocketing was really kinda boring in UO. Instead of having stealing being vs players perhaps it should just be against NPC's and stuff and there can be some neat rares and stuff that a theif can collect stealing from NPC's but they are flagged for PvP if they do use stealing on an NPC. The theif's next step will be to escape or kill pursuing guards and players. If your a stealthy theif you might just hide and sneak around to avoid combat(this would be my favorite way to play the theif!) If your more of a person who enjoys challenging other players you might try to fight off pursuing guards and players.

 

I have no problem with stealing from players IF one thing can be answered.

The logic behind stealing is you level your skill and the higher your skill gets the better your chance of successfully pilfering an item.

What about theft prevention?

Is there some skill that you level to prevent someone from stealing? If you level your theft prevention skill what does that do to the chances of a max skill theft?
In UO, someone correct me if I am wrong as I left UO early, theft prevention was based on how you placed items in your pack.

In both systems, new players end up being the prime target. They don't have a prevention skill leveled or they don't have an understanding of how the prevention mechanic works.

So the question to be answered is how is the roll of the victim at all entertaining? Bonus question - what's the point of stealing from players when there is a skill/mechanic that completely removes the ability to steal from other players.

Stealing is pretty much a mini game, the balance of the game tends to sway to one side, which can easily go from game to harassment. (theft from people that are unaware they can be victimized)

 

Stealing for me was very similar to PK'ing because I wouldn't just steal or kill from anyone at random. I would stalk the players who had nice houses (which of course meant they usually had other nice things). Sometimes my brothers and I would take shifts waiting outside their houses hidden until they showed up. We could then either kill or steal from them. Another thing we used to do was waiting around vendor houses outside of city limits, and steal from the people that had recently purchased things.

Sometimes we would steal something that was insignificant from a person who was wearing something valuable (which you couldn't steal), and then have them chase us back to a place where our partners were waiting to kill them.

If you do this to NPC's they usually have distance limits or it just is pointless because you might as well be gathering your group to go into a dungeon if you are only interested in PVE.

 

Are you talking about theft prevention as a game mechanic or as a human skill? I'm not sure, so I'll give you my thoughts on both.

If it's a game mechanic/skill, which I don't like the idea of, I would think that other theft prevention measures would be in place such as theft only being possible in certain places (like where more difficult mobs are). Potentially, theft could only be possible from players who are at or near maximum level or have achieved some play time status.

If it's a human skill, then I go back to the real world. Everyone has probably seen movies where the naive country kid goes to the big city and they get into trouble by being on the wrong street or part of town. This to me is the same way that it would operate in the game. You start out in villages where there's no theft, but when you reach the big city, all things are possible.

As for the fun aspect for the victim, the reason I became a thief and a PK in UO, and started to PVP in WoW, is because I was victimized first. I remember my first encounter in UO with a PK... there was a bridge outside Trinsic that was only 1 tile wide, and you used to lose stamina as you ran. While running, I got stuck on the bridge, and for a second I didn't know why. I thought it was just another "stuck" bug in UO. Then I saw "Corp Por" and a red name. Then I saw "OoOOOoOoo." I followed him around as a ghost for a long time. He eventually rez'd me and we started talking. He told me that if I helped him out, he would let me have a cut of the loot, and I wouldn't even have to go red. Skills were hard to gain, but I could spam hiding for hours. I learned how to hide, and we would trap people on the bridge. I would steal their reagents (usually the Mandrake Root so they couldn't heal), and he would kill them. I realize that doesn't address the question of victims of stealing directly, but I don't want to delete it now that I've reminisced.

So back on topic, essentially, the fun of being a victim is in the fact that you can develop a real sense of personal hatred for the thief. If someone takes something from you or kills one of your friends, what better reason can you come up with for hunting them down and killing them? Sure, organized PVP is fun, guild wars are fun, but there's nothing really at stake other than your pride as a player. When you feel that sense of loss and anger, it gives you a reason to play the game, get better at the game, and rally your allies for assistance.

 

I get the sentiment, I really do, but there are others that take the opposite approach. They log off and never come back. Some never want to be in a position that brings out hate for another person.

NPC hate is rationalized as a game, people hate does not work that way. Hating other people can never happen, they would rather walk away and never look back.

So how do you give people the option to remove themselves from this without removing themselves from the game?

Oh and human skill? Euwww, that sounds like a twitch based thief game lol

 

I think the best option is to only allow stealing in certain areas - particular cities, dungeons, wilderness areas (so it's available in all settings, but not all places). Then people who don't want to participate don't have to go to those areas. I would also give those areas some special appeal so that people are enticed to take the risk even if they aren't a thief or killer.

 

This would likely make me stick to never playing with others.

I hate the concept of stealing from other players with a passion that, if I were to describe how I really feel about someone that intentionally steals from others, I would likely be banned from the forums; let's just say that I see little difference in ruining in-game effort and ruining real life effort.

So, I really, REALLY, want to avoid any possibility of being stolen from by a player, even if the only thing stolen are inconsequential and easily replaced goods. I would treat any combination of place and game mode where I was forced to expose myself to player theft as if it didn't exist in the game. Thus, having places where I would be subject to being stolen from in OPO would merely make me see OPO mode as incomplete, and would make me stick to other modes where I could go to those places without that risk, even if it meant playing offline.

For reference, I only see in-game theft in that light when done by a player. Being stolen from by a NPC would be annoying, but I would deal with it as being just a part of the game. My repulsion is not triggered by the loss itself, but rather by it being caused by a living, thinking person.

 

But Stider, it is ever so satisfying whenever you get the opportunity to kill one of them. Strip them clean and dismember their corpses, and carry their head into the town square (if allowed). That more than makes up for their stealing the odd dagger from me now and then.

 

Different persons, different preferences, different issues.

I do admit I have some issues separating actions against a proxy - such as my character - and actions against the controlling person - such as myself - as far as the feeling it causes; the same way, I do have some issues separating actions I do against other person's characters and actions I do against that person himself. I don't want my character to be on the receiving end of anything that I wouldn't be OK with being on the receiving end in the real world, and I'm not going to do to another character something I wouldn't do to the controlling person in the real world.

That being said, I see in-game consensual PvP as just a friendly sparring match, and I look at the actual in-game results of injury and death instead of it's symbolism, so I have no issue with those. But never expect me to ever take part, neither as aggressor nor as victim, in in-game theft, looting, or any kind of non-consensual PvP against other players; taking part in those would make me feel as bad as taking part in similar real world activities.

 

Maybe this is why so many in the KGB are current active duty military, or former active duty military. I don't have that inhibition, because I had already made that decision in real life a long time ago.

SotA is a game for everyone. You just have to pick the mode that suits your style of play.

 

Yep. Without heavy training to remove that inhibition I would make a crappy soldier or policeman (which is ironic because I'm a reserve corps engineering officer in my country's air force, a post that did include a year of actual military training...)

 

I have started playing UO-Forever, and I love playing my thief, more than anything else. This is because the game is unbalanced on the thiefs side...


Being good only matters if you have the freedom and choice to go bad. But it has to have the right balance, and risk/reward tradeoff for both sides.

If you are carrying something it should be at risk of being taken from you. This way you will value, and respect what you have. But you should be able to protect yourself and reduce the likelihood you are going to be robbed. Maybe a spell of detection, but it has to cost either time or money.

The risk should be greater as you expect, when you are alone in a dark dungeon... but less when you are in town around a lot of guards watching over things.

The risk on the side of the thief MUST be increased as well. Death is just not much of a punishment. Have a friend/char around the corner to rez you if you die, is no big deal. Less than 5mins, and I am back stealing again in UO currently. This is a big time flaw. The real punishment for being caught should be time. Your char should be sent to prison, and you will not be released till you complete enough tasks or time while in prison. While in prison, you collect nothing, but get to meet the other people that have been caught stealing from others. A natural guild of thieves will be forming... Now the game becomes completely immersed, and fun in both directions.

My great hope for SotA (UO2) is to open the mind and allow people to do anything, and see that most chose to do the right thing, when they balance the risk/rewards.

 

The problem with thieves in UO was that a 2 minute timer was stupidly short. Should have been like a murderer. 8 hours game time, and not cleared by death. No running back to bank for YOU, boyo.

 

I want to play a bad guy. Every hero has to have a villain right?

As for the whole topic. Mechanics are the a hard part, but balancing is going to be the hardest. That's to say if we can even be thieves? LB has created a great(my opinion) stealing system in the past. I'm confident if we are allowed to steal in SOTA it will be creative, allowing players to interact with and against it fairly.

 

They should have had to run to Bucs bank to be able to put their stolen gear in.

That would have created some more action too.

 

As I mentioned, the short 2 minute thief flag made that unnecessary. That flag needs to be a LOT longer if SotA doesn't want to see a repeat of the same pathological game design seen in UO.

 

Maybe a different color flag would be good... or a different type of flag, like instead of a name color change, you have to actually click on the person or select them in some way as if you were looking at them, and they "appear to be up to no good."

 

If a person were caught thieving in a particular town, they should have a persistent flag in that town, but not necessarily in other towns. Guards would apprehend the person and lock them up. Wanted posters could be put up with bounties offered, so new players coming into the town could see and know them for being a thief it they meet them in another town, and either try to catch them themselves for a reward, or tell the town guards, at which point, the person would be flagged as a thief in that town as well.

There should be a way for a thief to 'pay their debt to society', but not by paying a fine. Gold can be acquired too easily, and over time it doesn't mean much. Time will always be valuable. Either banished from a town for a period of time, or rotting in jail for a period of time, no parole, no escape. Either way, during that time, they are not a threat to citizens of that town.