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Tamed Constructive Criticism

Discussion in 'Release 23 Feedback' started by Bluefire, Nov 4, 2015.

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  1. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    I tried to tame a chicken, but was told I had < 20% chance of success.
     
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  2. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    I want to tame a faun.. shouldn't be too hard since they're already slaves. :eek::eek:
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
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  3. StrangerDiamond

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    I miss Time Lord :(
     
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  4. Bluefire

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    I worked this last release and reported what it takes to get to level 26 - 978 pet pulls. That is 978 hours of play or 978 deaths. Again, nothing fun about this. It brings you down to an incredible 47.0 minutes for refresh timer at that point, a Combat Training of 2, and -14.6% to Focus drain. Granted Focus Drain is different in this release as now it affects total focus pool instead of applying a negative regeneration rate, but these still need to be applied to the skill as an exponential decay - with large results obtained in the first 30 levels with less gain over the last 90 levels.

    Refesh Timer needs to become Flee/Death Timer and as I wrote last release should look a bit more like this:
    Code:
    Level  Minutes
       1   60
      10   45
      30   30
      60   15
     120    0
    
    Below are my observed results from Release 22. I stair stepped one of the skills so I could double check my findings and I'll admit that I am likely off by one or two pulls on occasion:
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. redfish

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    Chickens are already tame, aren't they?
     
  6. Bluefire

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    Maybe you should have been carrying some chicken feed. :oops:
     
  7. Sindariya

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    Taming is not perfect yet, but it is much better than it was and I can't agree on many arguments given in the OP.

    Yes it is annoying, that we still have not that much silver nodes. I got in on day one, because I asked for help from friends. We were 3 or 4, but we could get as far as we needed and got plenty of silver. I could solo the graff mines now, but was not dedicated into getting my skills up. A guildmember could solo the mine beginning last week.

    I understand why you are frustrated, you needed 20 collars or more for one pet. But explain me once, why did you waste 10 collars when you know the chance is less than 1%. We were pampered by the old system and I was also frustrated, that it takes time and passion to raise the taming skill. That the tamed pet is not as good as the wild version was a change in the last release. In one of the hangouts, Chris mentioned, that they were totally overpowered and it was never their intention to make them that strong.

    Overall Take-away: Pet taming is like crafting. It takes much time to master it. I could already open a pet shop and sell several pets. I have great fun.

    The taming collar is not like the smelting tongue, it is like coal or any other fuel, that is consumed when failing. Or see it a reagent, for higher spells. You need there also for nearly each try new reagents. It is a play with luck like mining. You can have 99% and still fail twice in a row or have only 12% chance and get it in the first try.
    Taking your example, injured animals are more wild than not injured. You may have noticed, that your taming chance is raising when you hurt the animals.

    Collars are not a weapon, they are a reagent. And not the collar itself is so frustrating. The needed silver is. So I would start balancing option to gain silver ( more mining spots (and lower tier) and perhaps only 1 ingot to craft it). Further more the taming chance should raise more if you bring down the animal to 10% live than to 80%.

    Sorry but why do you want to punish people for working together on taming. That is what I really like about this game. You can work together to achieve things, you don't have to. Your logic following we should be able to tame a dragon when we can kill it? Taming means to get control over it and force your will on this animal. That is harder than killing. I why should you get a higher chance if try it the tenth time? Does grizzly bear sit down and thinks, yeah this guy put so much effort into it, I give in. No this animal want to stay free, so they will fight till the end. At the moment I'm glad they don't get in rage after the first attemp and make it harder to tame it.

    Your tamed pet is like a weapon. You equip your sword to kill, you equip your armor to protect yourself, you equip jewelry to get bonuses. So why not equip a pet which gives you more dmg and work like a second or even third weapon? You can't have everything, you have to decide. Your request is like asking to use a 2-hander with one hand to use a shield to protect yourself, because others can use it. You call your pet like you unsheathe your weapon to be able to fight. If you are able to get to use the tamed combat pet when it is just in your bag, than why even equip any jewelry and not just having it in the bag and get the bonus from all instead of one?

    Why does the passive time you have the animal out should influence your ability to call a pet? Makes no sense for me. What annoys me more, is that this skill doesn't give back anything when leveling. I wish it would get the effect of the skill "Refresh". But I guess this skill will play a role, when we are allowed to summon more than one pet at the same time. But I have no clue how that should work with the whistles.

    This skill needs to be adapted to the new system. And than it makes sense again, because you lose only per pull the focus and for the time the pet is out.

    First I had the same thinking. Permadeath is so hard. But here it is your job to take care of it. It is like running out of focus or health, you need to have an eye on it. Just dismiss your pet before you or it get killed and you are fine. It will take time to get used to it, but this how it works and I like it. It is the same with repairing a weapon or getting a new one. The 60 sec are a bit harsh, I would experiment a bit with this timer like testing next release 90sec. At the moment I don't feel like I have real chance to rez my pet, because first I have to finish the current combat so I don't get interrupted and than you need much focus for the spell and normally I'm out of focus. And if it fizzle it gets really hard.

    But you give me an idea, why not add another mode beside agressive and defensive, that makes the pet run away already at 25% health or 50%. and with "Obedience" you can adjust it to your liking.

    This requires a totally new system to level skills so unlikely. At the moment I guess this system is buggy and doesn't work like it should. Ihope you reported it as bug.

    Sorry but your propose allows more abuse as the current system. I need only a good spot in a difficult area and sit there to level it. I have to admit, that I don't really like, that my pet is dismissed when I leave a scene but my timer is not.
    A tamed pet may act like a weapon but it is more like summoning skill with a long cool down. Compared to summoning skills of elements, pulling a pet is still in a big disadvantage and I hope tamed pets will get a boost so they have some good points against summond Elements.

    Don't have this feeling but the current system still needs work and a lot adjusments.
    I will give my full feedback when I tested everything.
     
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  8. Atticus Gryphonheart

    Atticus Gryphonheart Legend of the Hearth

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    When I first started, I farmed enough silver to make 10 collars. I managed to tame a gray wolf (33%) and then later a large gray wolf (had 10%). Was not fun. I have now spent the last week farming silver (4 hours a day for last 7 days to yield ~800 silver). I now have enough silver to make ~100 collars. Yet I don't look forward in wasting them to build up my taming skill. By my own estimate, I will be lucky to get my taming skill up to 20. So instead I plan to summon my pet every hour for the next few weeks till I can get recover collar up a bit higher (want at least 15%). I will be farming more silver while doing that.

    One of the things I really didnt want to do was be spending months at a time grinding, but currently that looks to be what I must do. I still haven't been able to figure out if you get more XP for being successful on a tame vs unsuccessful or if there is more xp gained from attempting taming on a higher level creatures. I hope someone can give me some input on this so I know where to concentrate my taming.

    But ultimately, I want to figure how long will it take to gain enough skill points to capture an Obsidian wolf or bear?

    Basically, since release 23 has come out, I have yet to explore the new content. I took a break from farming the other day just to complete the tour guide quest, but other than that, it is all I have been doing.

    I will keep you updated, but I feel this is going to take some time. I am also trying to avoid the cheese method of gaining skills points in the taming tree (i.e. killing myself repeatedly to be able to be able to resummons and thus slowly build up collar recovery). From previous posts, this exploit will be removed so that after death, your pet doesn't refresh (I wish that if it didn't die and you leave the zone it can follow you with out resummoning).

    At my current rate though, I figure I will be in release 24 before I have a shot at getting an Obsidian creature.
     
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  9. Coolwaters

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    Respectfully, all of this is argument and poor argument at that. You are forming conclusory statements to support the current iteration of taming, almost exclusively. The truth is that most of your comments are not fair analysis at all and are akin to confirmation bias in a testing setting. Examples are quoted above. Reading your thoughts certainly does not persuade me that your conclusion (that taming is in a good place) is correct. On the contrary, based only on your thoughts, I am persuaded to keep my taming collars in my bank until something changes to make the juice worth the squeeze.

    It itsn't currently.
     
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  10. Sindariya

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    The funny thing is, that I like that you don't want to take part in taming, less competition for me. You can use animals without taming them yourself. If you don't like it, it is okay. I wonder why everything has to be mastered in 1 month. It is a tough skill and if everyone can tame obsidian creatures in one month, where would be the fun. A tamed pet is not like a sword. When I see how hard many crafters have to fight to get a good set of critted armor, I feel that the amount of time put into it is the same as taming. I see taming as equivalent to crafting, not like a simple sword skill. I'm not sure if anyone of you tried chaos skills yet? Those are as twice as hard to skill like every other skill and taming is as hard as that.
     
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  11. Coolwaters

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    I'm quite sure you like that.

    If you're looking for an extremely elitist system that very few players will suffer through to participate in, thereby creating a bastardized form of scarcity on which something resembling an economy can be based, then you've found it.

    Most players aren't looking for that in my experience.

    It's a bad system.
     
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  12. Atticus Gryphonheart

    Atticus Gryphonheart Legend of the Hearth

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    One of the problems I currently am having is not so much taming but summoning. Why have multiple whistles if you can only summon one pet and then wait for summoning rest to deplete before you cast any other creature.

    One of the things I wanted to do was have pets fighting other pets...i.e. chickens vs chickens, wolf vs wolf, bears vs bears. But for a single individual would have difficulties participating in different events. I am not sure why each whistle doesnt have its own "rest" period.

    Granted, when I am in a fight in the wild, and I see my pet about to die, I try to dismiss it b4 it happens...sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. If it works, I understand the delay in resummoning it. But how is it making the other pets in my inventory in capable of being summoned.

    I am not even certain why I should try to increase my summoning skill now since I have unlocked all the other skills. Putting xp in that takes away from the other skills which are more useful.

    Overall this tree is still broken. It is grind and wait.
     
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  13. StrangerDiamond

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    Thats good feedback, no need to sound so negative this is definately one thing that can improve :)
     
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  14. Sindariya

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    Oh I love this thought. That would bring in a new dynamic also regarding multiple summoning.
     
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  15. helm

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    I too started playing with taming a little bit. A few observations and suggestions coming from this limited experience:

    1. The summoning timeout should be whistle-specific (I haven't personally tried it, but understood from other comments that it isn't so). Even the instructions state that "Tamed beasts need time of their own to rest and hunt. After being called there is a significant cooldown before a tamed beast can be called again." Soo..if I have a wolf and a bear, they are such good pals that if the bear is out there having some quality time of its own, then my wolf would refuse to come if called, maybe as a kind of sympathetic gesture towards the bear? What's next, a Labor Union of Tamed Animals? It's so illogical that it must either be a bug or it's only halfway implemented (I suspect the latter, so expecting it to change in the next release).

    2. Taming skill should be treated as a base skill. It's only logical that your taming skills should increase the more you work with your animals, fighting with them, healing them, taking care of them. Right now it incrases only when one actually uses the esoteric "taming skill", which leads to endless grinding (see below).

    3. More granularity to the effect of low health on the success rate. Right now it does not seem to matter if you have your prospective companion only slightly wounded, or if it's a single arrow away from death. Again, it's only logical that if you prove (to the animal) that you could well be able to kill it, your chances of taming it should improve considerably.

    4. Obtaining taming collar materials (silver) is the current Grind of the Month in this game.

    My thoughs exactly.

    So what does it currently cost to advance your taming skill? I came up with rather similar figures as Atticus (elaborated in the spoiler), concluding that in order to reach taming level 20 (from 10 that I started with) I would need to harvest around 800 silver ores, and to progress from there to level 30, 1300 silver ores more, and to level 40 from there, 1800 more, at total of maybe 4000 silver ores. That is not counting the effect of the collar recovery skill (although I did some rounding down), but in any case that's quite a lot of grinding. Add to that the fact that you don't exactly stumble on silver ore nodes every tenth step.
    This is a little bit technical so it's inside a spoiler. In any case I like to elaborate my reasoning, with warts and all, so one may try to find faults and perhaps improve it.

    These figures are, of course, just very simplistic and coarse guesswork, but it's enough for them to at least be in the same ballpark. I observed the summoning progression and concluded that the number of required summons were increasing by roughly one with every level advanced (when one gets more advanced, it's probably much steeper than that, but I'm being generous here). So I generously assumed that to reach level n (from zero), one would need T(n) * 0.66 summonings, where T is the triangular number, for example T(5)=1+2+3+4+5=15, so to reach level 5, 15*0.66=9.9 -- about 10 tries would be required. Remember this is just very rough ballpark guessing.

    As an aside, to ease calculations you can use a python interpreter and define a little function in there (just copy-past it in) e.g. I used
    Code:
    def ReqSummons(n):
      sum_ = 0
      for i in range(n+1):
            sum_+= i
      return sum_ * 0.66
    
    ...so you can play with level requirement estimates more easily, e.g. to reach level 14 starting from level 10 would then be ReqSummons(14) - ReqSummons(10). You can certainly do a similar thing with a spreadsheet like LibreOffice or Excel.

    I then assumed that taming progression would be roughly similar. This is a very daring assumption, based on just the fact that I wasted maybe ten collars (I first tried too high level animals and had some bad luck) succeeding once, and it only took me to level 11, close to reaching 12: ReqSummons(12)-ReqSummons(10) = about 15 (I assumed that that a successful tame would be worth a few unsuccessful attempts). So there's a lot of assumptions, but I believe it's in the ballpark.

    Since a taming collar requires two silver ingots = 8 silver ores, this means that you multiply the number or required attempts by 8.

    So this is the base of my ballpark estimates. I could very well be wrong, but then just please point out where I am wrong, or suggest a better formula or reasoning.
    >>> (ReqSummons(20)-ReqSummons(10))*8
    818.3999999999999
    >>> (ReqSummons(30)-ReqSummons(20))*8
    1346.4000000000003
    >>> (ReqSummons(40)-ReqSummons(30))*8
    1874.4


    Concluding with a positive remark, it's definitely going in the right direction. Most of the fundamental design decisions are sound, but it definitely needs tuning, and some of these required tunings should not be too subtle.

    EDIT - a couple of elaborations and typo fixes
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
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  16. StrangerDiamond

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    This underquoted is soooo wrong... I can't even begin to begin... very logical yes... thats why we need to use a collar AS IF wild animals could be brought to total submission by violence and abuse which is already WRONG on its own.

    This is one other of those "how did that pass Q&A?¿"...

    I hope its just a joke...


    ...


    nice old school avatar btw...

    good grief...
     
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  17. Bluefire

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    It's not. Per the release instructions the closer to death the critter is the better the chance is supposed to be for 'taming'.

    I think that SWG had it right that you could only tame baby creatures (in their first iteration of creature handler) - but that's more work than necessary right now. I vote they simply remove the beating into submission concept.
     
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  18. StrangerDiamond

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    Look... I'm just not going to reply because it won't be nice... Peace have a nice day.

    Taming is taming... being a brute is something else.

    Don't get me wrong I appreciate your point of view its just I'm angry...
     
  19. Bluefire

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    Apologies, @Ahuaeynjgkxs I don't want to leave you feeling that I support the idea of beating the creatures into submission. I do not. It is the current mechanism in the game, however. My "It's not" was in response to your statement of "I hope it is just a joke!"
    " Injured beasts are easier to tame, so it may be desirable to wear down an animal before attempting to tame it."

    I'd rather that the longer we stand toe to toe defending against the creature (healing ourselves, using defensive measures that do not attack the creature should help us to eventually convince the creature we are not going to hurt it but rather want to work with it. The longer we can last with the creature the better chance we should have to tame it. Thinking about this as a system lead me to reason that this would easily be used by a group to heal a tamer and easily be able to tame tough to obtain creatures and even dragons by spending an hour or two toe-to-toe with the creature, which I am sure is not the final intent behind the system.

    All in all I am currently not in agreement with most of the live system.
     
  20. Bluefire

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    Sindariya,

    I see permadeath as the biggest negative that will actually be an obstacle to overcome with prospective clients.

    I think instead of focusing where you state you disagree with my concerns I'll focus on where you appear to agree to a degree or appear to have misunderstood my concerns.

    We both agree the silver needed is too much. Would you not also agree that the amount of other materials are a bit excessive?
    To make it to level 20 creature taming you will need the following materials based on my observations that this requires approximately 165 attempted tamings.
    660 copper and/or iron ore
    660 chunks of coal
    440 animal hides
    220 curing salts
    1,320 silver ore
    5 ingot molds

    Considering it takes me about 6 hours of mining in the Graff Gem Mines to retrieve 80 silver and 80 copper+iron achieving level 20 would take me 99 hours just to retrieve the minerals and then however long it takes me to kill 440 animals would have to perish all so I can have a chance at capturing 165 animals. This is not a reasonable effort versus reward and thankfully not how it works in real life. In real life it doesn't take 4 animals to make 2 leather straps. The silver is supposed to represent magic in the process - nothing magic about this kind of waste. Now I just need to spend the next 3 years working against skill decay while I get the next 100 levels, right? :0)

    Don't forget about all the forests I'll have to clear to build the whistles for the animals I do capture. Let's say I'm smart and go only for things I have a 50% chance of capturing and I get 1 out of every 2.
    That's 82 whistles
    656 Wood
    164 Creosotes
    656 Silver Ore
    82 wax
    82 wood rasps
    2 Ingot molds

    I agree this is luck like mining for using the collars and that you can fail several times with a 99% chance, then again you can get luck several times with a 1% chance as it's really based on a broken random roll and not a true percent chance. Unlike mining, however the tool is consumed. I like your comparison of collars to reagents. It certainly explains it all away nicely, but no reagent in the game requires 23 consumables to obtain one reagent.
    Coating something in silver should only require ore, not an entire ingot.

    I would agree that taming chance should go down as you hurt the animal, but that is not how the system is currently implemented. We should be 100% defensive to tame. The game wouldn't suffer if everything (except bunnies and stags) didn't automatically and immediately agro us on sight. There need to be more docile animals and even a wolf shouldn't blindly attack. Evil creatures should agro anything within 10m of them and natural hunters should be defensive only if we get too close - say 2m - otherwise they just appear to be naturally stupid instead of hunters or prey. What wolf in nature would want to confront a lumberjack for taking a tree? Even bears in the real world run from loud sounds unless they are simply starving.

    The taming section was me asking for a change in how we acquire XP for taming and what should be most important in convincing a creature to submit: patience, not collars and not abuse. With that in mind we would not want abuse of the system of patience permitting us a chance to capture an animal that should be nearly impossible simply because we were in a large group of people healing the tamer indefinitely resulting in people capturing the best creatures only because they work in a group. There could be many different solutions to this as this was just one idea. Animals become docile because we continue to work with them and we outlast their will to stay free. Stamina not luck should play a roll. Notice I pointed out that adventure level + bonus for taming level could be used in lieu of anti-group solutions. Thus a level 22 player attempting to tame an obsidian bear with level 2 taming would never succeed no matter how many players were healing them. It is not my intent to recommend punishing any playstyle.

    The problem with wearing the summoning necklace is it creates a double penalty to the creature handler. In reality people are not limited to wearing just one necklace but in games this tends to be case. The only negative to the pet handler should be the drain on focus not a hit to our stats as the pet does not replace a bonus to intelligence or stamina. This is where I agree, the pet is a weapon, a dps bonus. The focus pool reduction is a great compensation for that. Add to the mix the perma death and now there is little reason to have the pet out at all.

    Defensive should be the mode where the pet runs after trying to defend you to it's comfort level. I believe that is the design. Not disagreeing with your idea - it wouldn't hurt to have a defensive+safety mode in addition, but technically shouldn't that be what they are in before we put time into Obedience? Aggressive should make the pet be a bit more reckless but still it should flee before killed. Of course my job includes watching the pet and I would normally store in R22 when it was near death, but I was observing to see if it would attempt to flee like in R22. Since I was just stupid for trying 10 collars on a low taming chance I'll count him as a 10 collar loss, not 20 collar loss since it was two attempts to capture him and 8 failed attempts following to capture another exact same bear. In my final assessment, however even if collars were no longer consumed on failed capture attempts permadeath from one failed fight is not conducive to "taking time to get used to" fighting with the creature and in my opinion it will cripple the economy for pets because people are not going to want to pay gold to pull something out and watch it die in seconds. Again, this is where the pull debuff should be moved to - it should be an incap/death timer. Pulling should not be an XP type.

    I'm glad we agree we don't like a timer that promotes avatarcide and punishes exploring outside the current zone. The fix here is not to keep the debuff applied to us even through death, but rather to change the purpose of the debuff and remove all pull experience. Why should I gain experience from simply calling a pet? One game's XP is another game's exploit I suppose. Death as an exploit? LOL - believe me the time I spent last release to get to level 25 Concentration was absolutely ridiculous compared to getting to level 25 blade skills - even though I stood right next to an ankh. Would 979 hours seem reasonable to get to level 25 Concentration? That is what it was in R22. I won't know what it is in R23 as I'm not going to spend anymore time obtaining materials to lose a pet unexpectedly. I'm not sure how a person can abuse having the pet out while engaged in activities (not afk or standing still) in wild areas as an XP type - could be the xp for doing things is reflected into the pet skill pools and not just time in general. Technically, however all our pet handling XP should come from XP the pet obtains by attacking to keep things simple but I thought a couple more non-violent XP gains would be nice.

    We certainly agree the current system needs a lot of work and adjustments. My line in the sand, however, is permadeath. They can keep it as pet wounds or pet decay from battles, but let me have the ability to decide, "you know this pet is about to expire, I should only keep it as a decoration or for safe zone show and tell from now on." Don't just yank it from the whistle and laugh at me for daring to use what I worked to obtain. However that system would still be negatively viewed by me as it only serves to foster an economy that would still thrive without decay or permadeath as many will never pursue the profession but they will likely want to try pets from us then trade, collect, or discard them. Unless we are planning to have a fixed population of players I see many opportunities for players wanting their first and then better pets that will be provided by those of us pursuing the profession.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
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