The Combat System....

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Tiberius Theron, Mar 16, 2015.

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  1. Mishri

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    Asguard, if I were a mod I'd give you warning over your personal attacks. Most of what you are saying is simply "This system sucks, and anybody that likes it is stupid, and the developers are stupid". It isn't very helpful for this discussion. It's an attack on the system, rather than anything constructive. Other people have proposed detailed combat systems. If you want to propose your own system that's fine too. But having a discussion where it's simply an attack on the current system isn't of any value in progressing this game or the combat system.

    I don't believe the combat system will kill this game. The locked skill system will be revamped later on to be more balanced with the deck system, right now it's favoring deck building intentionally so people try it.
     
  2. TantX

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    People tried it. A lot of people don't like it. Reviews are coming in more regularly reflecting this. This is a major portion of the game. Talk about housing and street names and decorating tools needs to be put on hold, and combat needs a looking at. Now, not 5 months down the road.
     
  3. Mishri

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    That is ridiculous. To say they can't work on other things to improve the game.

    I haven't seen any professional reviews that state the game is bad because of the combat, or even that the combat is bad, I've seen mostly favorable reviews. Generally the feeling on combat from what I've read/watched is that it's kind of Meh.. it's okay, not bad. They are looking for something more.

    1 suggestion I might have is doing combat chains for locked skills. (Similiar to FFXI). -requires other players or companions to pull off, but can be as good/better than combos. The other is the classic, "don't stand in the red area" Or, if we want to be more immersive, charge up attacks that you know you should move away from or interrupt.
     
  4. Mishri

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    Another reason people probably aren't too excited about the combat is the skills feel.. very generic. I'd like to see skills do more in combat. skills that can drag or pull your opponents. (we have 1 that pushes already which is cool) skills that trigger additional affects based on the character state. a rooted enemy takes more damage from an earthquake type ability, a poisoned enemy takes additional damage from a poison ability, chilled/cold, on fire additional fire. or possibly instead of additional damage a stun effect or other interesting effect. maybe a knockdown or something else depending on the skill.

    Some of that can be balanced out with once triggered you get a cooldown on that skill (Even in the deck system).

    This can be done with defensive abilities too, Turtle lets you hide behind your shield taking reduced damage, if you are knocked down, the bonus is doubled. Healing, if the target is stunned it gets a bonus to healing done (Theory being the person is standing still and thus the healing is able to restore more wounds since they aren't moving).
     
  5. Ristra

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    Obviously... But how does 1 person give feed back that sways the design decision? Detailed feed back carries weight. Beyond that, it falls into market research.
    No it is not and that is part of their design. Fall backs are in place. But if you look at the posts in this thread. There are plenty of complaints with the locked system too. Scrapping the deck doesn't make combat better. It doesn't even removed the issue with the need to focus on the UI because there are cool downs still.
    Not really. The combat system being scrapped, including the fall backs, is abandoning a core element of the game.
     
  6. TantX

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    Polearms already have push and pull. And that's swell and all, but those are circumstantial abilities, needing access to at a moment's notice to make useful. With the card system, you cannot ensure that ability will be available at that rare and precise moment when the ability would be game changing. Instead, you'll invest points into skills that will always work, ie. sets fire to stuff or generally melts face.

    As for reviews, go read something that has a negative mark on the review, not just ones marked with a thumbs up.
     
  7. Mishri

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    Are you talking about steam reviews? Those don't matter. I read professional reviews.

    1) If you don't like the deck system use the locked skills then

    2) If you build your deck right at maximum draw speed you'll have that skill up within about 0-5 seconds. I never feel like I'm waiting for an ability with the deck system. I have it setup for max focus regen, max draw speed, I use my normal attack abilities as fast as I can, discard things I don't want (such as slugs) and save my niche abilities. - You can increase that to the point you'll draw through your deck before you lose it.

    Most of your "issues" with the system sounds like it's because you aren't playing it to it's maximum potential.
     
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  8. Sold and gone

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    I really don't care about what others think, because I cannot change the way they feel. The only thing I can do is state my individual case, and not reference others because in all reality some people just complain to complain. I do not know them from Adam. Its easy to listen to people that say what you want to hear them say, but is it constructive, do they have points, or are they just rants. Again, one can only state his or her own opinion, and express themselves in a way that might get the devs attention. Dev's know about the reviews, I am pretty sure they have some one reading the threads there as well as here. If they think its a rant or non constructive, how can they acknowledge it or do a counter point to it. I'm pretty sure they do not want to get into a flame war with posters. So, be constructive, concise, and make your point. They might take that to heart then.
     
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  9. Sir_Hemlock

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    STEAM reviews matter

    lol @ professional.reviews


    :p
     
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  10. Mishri

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    Alright, well if steam reviews matter, they are mostly positive, so combat apparently hasn't ruined the game. -however, according to the pro's, combat needs some work but it isn't bad. most of the negative reviews on steam I read were about the graphics or that it isn't currently worth $45 because so much of the game still isn't done.
     
  11. Isaiah

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    this is a good point. So rather than fixing the deck system, why not just have the ability to place our glyphs individually anyplace we want on the screen?

    NO toolbar just glyphs as we see fit, and/or assign a shortcut key to each skill.

    One additional feature could be to toggle the glyphs visible, transparent, and invisible.

    I would like this. Would this solve it for you too?
     
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  12. Mishri

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    Yep, I've said before we should be able to customize our interface as much as possible, that would include moving the squares wherever we want individually or, snapped to grid. (toggle option) - then lock the location in place so you don't accidentally move it later. (Another toggle option)
     
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  13. Sammegarian

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    I agree with this quite wholeheartedly. People have said that the people that like the deck system are quite dispassionate about defending it, while the people the people that oppose it are very vocal/passionate. Well it seems to me that the people that like it are (For the most part) too busy actually being in game/testing things to be here on the forums to passionately defend something they don't know needs defending. The defenders are for the most part absent from the discussion, on the other hand, many of the protesters against the deck system are being crude at best, vitriolic/toxic at worst.
     
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  14. Isaiah

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    exactly! a deck person can stack 3 to 5 glyphs and it costs them way less focus, and then the deck repopulates with the same skill again! Since the deck person can get a focus reduction for stacking (which is annoying so they deserve some perk), then allow static toolbar people to cast their spells without cooldowns so we can be on equal footing.
     
  15. Sold and gone

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    Here is the last little bit on discussion of the UI. Start at 24:21

     
  16. Isaiah

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    I was passionate defending the deck system. The reason I stopped defending is, is due to the fact that I believe it had flaws that desperately needs to be addressed. Maybe the reason nobody is defending it is due to the fact that those who are against it are more passionate in their stance, and those who seem to like it are only passionate enough to say "yeah the deck is cool... "


    although many of those who argued against the deck system were met with strong arguments as to why the deck system is superior, and they have found it difficult to oppose it. This is due to the fact that those opposing it made statements that it is random and you cannot predict when you will get a glyph or not.

    The deck system is random but not unpredictable. I made a video of that proving that I not only had the glyphs I needed when I needed them, in fact I had more than enough. So the argument that the glyphs are unpredictable is utterly invalid.


    HOWEVER

    Stacking and micromanaging the toolbar are valid topics! If somebody argues against the deck system stating that it causes us stress, and to micromanage it... honestly I have no comeback argument against that because I would have to lie to argue against it. I have no motive to lie. What good will that accomplish here when we are giving feedback?

    If stacking and micromanaging was already a problem and now they intend to increase that, then I have a very strong feeling that the number of critics will increase in proportion to the increase of the new micromanagement features they will add.

    EDIT: I'm sure some will think it is cool in the beginning. Most novel things are. I thought stacking was cool when I did massive damage with my level 5 fireballs, but I burned out from playing it, and I didn't bother even playing the next release.
     
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  17. licemeat

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    I don't mind even having the cool downs. I just want there to be NO TIME where I am standing there doing nothing but autoattack for more than 1.5 seconds. This isn't a fishing simulation where I want to stand, watch, and hope. It is combat. I highly suggest the lock bar is addressed as an insurance to this game's future foundation. A foundation that will be made up of many people that want nothing to do with with the deck system, staring at UI, and playing cards while they are trying to fight. Twitch combat isn't a bad thing and most people are accustomed to it.
     
  18. Isaiah

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    yeah but what if you were a PvPer? Imagine having the cooldown against a player who has no cooldowns. You use your death touch spell. While you are waiting for the cool down your opponent uses 4 (equal strength & lower focus cost) death touches.

    Who wins?

    *keep in mind the deck constantly repopulates so this is possible and more death touches can populate as well*

    EDIT: This I have to say is what I like about the deck system. It is when stacking and combining come in that I have a problem. I can live with the current deck system (although I prefer it have an auto stack), but if it is made more strategic I fear that it will be more annoying than beneficial.
     
  19. MalakBrightpalm

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    But this scenario is in fact the core of the problem. All too often I see people arguing that locked bar isn't worth developing because of how much better random deal can be, but that imbalance is the result of poor planning! If I decided last week to go commando, and today I decided not to wear pants, then my sudden exposure would NOT be the result of some great doom, or unavoidable mechanic. The simple answer, as will be pointed out by any police officer I meet, will be to put on some damn pants! So what if you once decided to try something, if it's a bad idea you change direction. Portalarium is plowing onward with this "random deck is awesome rah-rah!" routine, and while I admit that it might get a LOT better, I just am NOT interested. I hear a lot of people who are SOTA backers and pre-alpha supporters saying the same. As it stands, forcing people to accept the random deck combat system is utterly foolhardy. Denying the requests that a locked bar be provided that works JUST AS WELL is foolishness. Either let the players have a UI they like, or they WON'T LIKE THE GAME. This shouldn't even be a debate, how could anyone think that pissing off potential customers is a good stratagem?

    Now, I currently run a hybrid, leaving a few buttons open for rapid fire spells, essentially my deck, and most of my bar locked for situational effects that I want constantly available, not random, not moving, not likely, but RIGHT THERE where I put them. And as a UI, that would work fine, if I wasn't being penalized by purely arbitrary, and OBVIOUSLY CONTRIVED, penalties that are there to balance my locked deck predictability advantage. Only they overbalance it. So not only does it feel artificial and contrived, but it forces what should be an advantageous technique to be a disadvantage, and that feels even more wrong.

    Imagine if a country had a tax code that added a flat 10% income tax PER $20,000 (US) an individual made, with no deductions. Making $200,000 would result in a 100% tax rate. Making $180,000 would actually give only slightly more after tax income than making $20,000. Ignore the fact that all the wealthy people would flee the country rather than pay 80-90% of their income, Ignore the billionaire's that would be paying more than 100% of their income. What incentive would anyone have to WANT to top 100k? It would infuriate everyone. Purely ridiculous, purely insulting, with no sense. Someone somewhere probably thinks this is a good idea, but they are wrong, and it would fail abysmally. That's the kind of thing we are facing here. The penalties to locked decks left reason and balance behind, and are blindly pushing an agenda that is obviously imbalanced. The current arrangement pushes us forcefully towards random deal, like a parent teaching a child to eat vegetables, and unlike that child, we are adults and can LEAVE. This patronizing approach is utterly doomed!

    And the only arguments I hear supporting this are "Give it time" "Understand it and you'll like it." and "Too late now!"

    Seriously, can we get any less intelligent?
     
  20. TantX

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    Some people think this game will sell 500,000 copies, so yeah.
     
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