The Combat System....

Back on topic - how can the current combat system become less sucky?

 

More intuitive, less random, the ability to have more options bound.
Change of a system that punishes the player for moving or attempting to play dynamically.

I'd call that a massive improvement for a start, and it would get rid of all the things that *I* find sucky.

 

The community's involvment in the devlopment of the game kinda seems groundbreaking. At least to me, i've not seen that take place before. I've also never seen or heard from as many devs in a live back and forth as i do with this game.
They arent to the stage of polishing the graphics yet, but if flat leaves keep me from having to wait till i can buy a new computer entirely then i wouldnt mind them staying that way at all. <--an opinion of mine. probably not a popular one but i know its a shared one.

As far as new game mechanics, I like that i can look at books on a table and read them, take them if i want. Turn lights on and off, set a table in someone's house for dinner and actually have folks come over to eat it and just talk. I've nto found that level of immersion in any game since UO.

Every game, including EvE online was always "lets go kill stuff".

I also like that im not forced to be level 100 before someone will play with me. That has been the case in every game except EvE. Unless i knew the person in real life, there was noone to play with until max level.


The deck system, i do enjoy. there's alot of potential for strategy with it. I jsut think its too distracting when trying to stack. If there was an easy way to stack (but nto TOO easy) that would be awsome

 

Double post!!!

What about having a Focus skill or somethign that you have to put in your deck or on your hot bar that automatically adds 1 stack to current glyphs if an extra is available int he current hand.

Cram it way down at the bottom of the tree so it takes a noticable amount of points to get to, that way if you have gotten good enough WITHOTU usign it, then you have those poitns free to put into something else

 

For starters...

I think we should be able to assign cards to pop up in specific slots... For example, if Thrust comes up, it'll come up in the #1 slot. If more than one Thrust comes up, you can choose to either have them pop up in another assigned slot, random slot, or automatically discarded for another card. Players could personalize it to the point where they have like one Red, Green and Blue card per slot. You can make it so only Thrust comes up in #1 slot, or Thrust and Parry come up in slot #1... you get the idea.

I notice myself staring at the hot bar too much, making combat less enjoyable. This would at least make it easier for me to tell which abilities are ready.

 

I'm a Founder, but haven't played all that much, the combat drives me nuts- is there a good explanation on how combat is supposed to actually work here on the boards?

I generally find the combat to be distressingly abstract at the moment- I really am not enjoying getting pulled out of the game to concentrate on deck details/bar. Shouldn't the game focus on the villains one is fighting over the abstract deck nonsense?

Generally, computers are now able to make things more realistic than they once were in games. It used to be, you used dice to make believe you were fighting a kobold or spider, and the calculations were actually NEEDED. Why is Shroud seemingly going backwards towards something less elegant than what modern games can field?

Today, the goal is to make things seem more NATURAL and REAL feeling, right? Not to task the player with things that remove the immersion of the fun world he or she is visiting.

Strategy is about understanding your enemy and acting wisely under pressure.....somehow, the whole concept of combat in Shroud seems to be lost on me. Can someone explain to me how this all makes sense?

I honestly just don't get the concept....what is it trying to "be", if not a realistic feeling of being in combat with assorted different monsters?

Wouldn't it be somehow....less disorienting, and more satisfying and real feeling, if the deck building/existence was kept out of the combat part of the game altogether, and was only a part of the "planning" stage of your building your character? That way, no need to have to withdraw from "being" your fighting adventurer to concentrate on the abstract bar below. It seems to me an awful design decision having to deal with these two unrelated concepts at the same time when fighting something in the game. It pulls you out of the world, right at the moment you should be most in it and scared- and anything that does that is failing dreadfully at the whole idea of being immersed in "another world".

At least, that is how I see it.

 

I'm not sure what realism has to do with SoTA, the deck system was an attempt to make generic hotkey mmo combat non generic, never to improve immersion or realism. The draw card system is designed to make random chance and twitch reaction skills more important than the current automatic 1,3,3,1,2,1,3,3,1,2,1 etc static rotations available in most MMOs.

Where it fails is not that it ruins immersion, but in that it takes your eye off combat to stare at a hot bar even more than a CD based system, any system that has a UI has immersion breaking aspects, and MMOS are the absolute worst rpgs if you want immersion.

Otha, how would you change MMO combat to make it more immersive or do you have an example of an MMO with immersive combat?

My problem is that I can't tell which card has popped up straight away, nor can I even predict it, so I can't plan ahead as well, if I have a x2 damage spell and all that pops up is 3 healing spells it gets on my nerves, or vice versa when I'm healing and someone is about to get hit big or needs a big heal I have to just hope that the heal turns up, which is why I don't think I'll ever be using the system outside of the odd bit of random fun.

 

Only because they were to lazy to make the individual skills interesting and varied enough to be used in different situations. Instead it is EXACTLY 1,2,3 combat because there is no specialisation in the skills because you have to be able to use whatever the RNG throws up

 

More fluff opinions while the data shows otherwise.
Smack keeps a spreadsheet with the campain stats.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...4AjUfyhcBux4w0R5Lt2Rl0H2k/edit#gid=1107218319
Please note that the numbers are slightly better than this since STEAM sales are excluded due to contractual reasons (ie STEAM demands it be undisclosed).

 

Other EA games have developer feedback. SotA is better than most, but there's also some discontent that their focus is on things like street names right now while there's a civil war going on about combat.

You can do that in ArcheAge and countless others over the last ~20 years. And since SotA is competing in the single player market as well, don't get me started on how many 1-players games allow that sort of fidelity.

SotA isn't really different in that regard, which is why the combat system is so important. Crafting, housing, and questing is all par for the course nowadays.

UO had that. Several others games have, as well, but that's also because there's only a few places to go right now. That may change at release.

Look up anything Richard Garriott's said in the last five years and the word "immersion" and its derivatives will come up in 99% of the speeches/interviews, SotA-related material no exception. It's why many people backed.

There is no "automatic" rotations in good games. That's the problem. People are basing a locked hotbar off of what WoW does. If they can come up with this mutant of a combat system, they could have come up with a better "locked hotbar" system or even something else altogether. But this was supposed to be mobile friendly for tablets someday, so the card system is focused upon.

MMOs are great for immersion, and taking your eyes off of the action and environment to focus on glyphs popping up is immersion-breaking. That's what people are complaining about right now.

UO, PotBS, ArcheAge, PlanetSide 2, SWG. Those are just a few off the top of my head that I've played over the years with highly immersive combat.

With all of the penalties that come with locked hotbars, this is why people are complaining. They say, "Oh well, I'll just stick with the locked variant - wait, why am I being penalized??"

 

Who is this written to? I did ignore a guy so it could be him, he was wrong on many levels.

 

I think this idea has come up before. It would have to allow stacking, putting a number in the corner showing how many of them are up. so you could have 5 thrusts in slot 1. and then it will stop giving you new skills till you use some (If you only have 5 slots). The other thing it could allow is you can have 10-20 slots which you can position anywhere on the screen, assigned to skills, even if you only have 5 active slots, so it will fill up to 5 skills. and the rest will remain empty till you discard/use a skill. I think it will help some of the complaints people have.

Not directed at you:

The other is combat is still very basic, Dev's are well aware and intend to put time into working on it. It takes time, it requires other systems to be built out. AI, additional NPC skills/abilities. All systems currently in the game need more work put into them, but it takes time, you focus too much on combat and crafters/RPers (arguably their largest audience) will be upset that crafting is still in the state it's in. I never heard a promise of Nov 2015 for release. I've always heard, It will be released when it's ready with a push to try to complete by 2015. Most people seem to expect a 2016 release though. I can show people what this game was like a year ago. It wasn't even a game yet, you could log in single player only no combat, no skills, no emotes, there wasn't anything in the game yet other than your character. We've come a long way in 1 year. If people don't think a lot more will be accomplished in another year of development there is no reasoning with those people.


Also street names is going to be an awesome addition to the game. It's important they get to it now before they start building out more towns otherwise they'll be going back later and fixing those towns with adding street names/signs.

 

Alpha is supposed to be the stage of development when all the major systems are in. Since they aren't all in yet, that's why we're still in 'Pre-Alpha'. The combat system, is still being put into the game. There are still skills in the skill trees that haven't been filled out in the game yet. Once all the pieces are in, then they'll be able to go over all the pieces and see how they are working together, how they need to be differentiated, etc. But that'll be in the second pass of this system. Step one is to put the system in the game. And then the rest of the systems, like crafting events, PoTs, permissions, AI, death, loot tables, equipment repair, dyable clothing, resources, fishing, playable instruments, interactable objects, banking, billboards, work orders, etc.. Once all the systems are in, they will be severely broken, but the game will be in Alpha, we'll test, give feed back, and focus will be on making the systems work. Once they are no longer broken, that's when We'll be in Beta. Fine-tuning, performance enhancements, streamlining code..

My point is, right now, some of the combat system is in. It was one of the first systems to be put in the game, because it is a high priority. But, as this is still Pre-Alpha, the system is broken, and it won't be time to fix it until Alpha phase. Get all the systems in, then go around and fix them all. That's the process as I understand it.

 

It doesn't apply accurately in EA games, so it's hard to quantify. But the reality is what we have is far and above an pre-alpha.

• Concept/Pre-Alpha: In this stage of development, the script is more of an abstract idea than an actual working program. Through this stage the coding starts and changes to functions are being made until a working draft is created.
• Alpha: In this stage you have a working script, but it probably still has lots of bugs that need to be worked out. You might not have all your features yet, but the core of the program is running and can be tested extensively.
• Beta: In this stage the program is near completion. All of the features are working and the software is often opened up to the public to test. There may still be some bugs that need to be worked out that may not have shown up in alpha testing.

It's pretty clear to me that we're in the alpha stage. We have working content, it isn't entirely fleshed out but it's there. Housing, crafting, combat, instances, character creation/customization, skills, NPCs and their schedules, quests - it's all there. It isn't feature complete, but it's there. That's alpha.

 

I do not know where you got this from out of my response but it is definitely not what I said. You're never going to please everyone. But they can attempt to do 'x' and hope that MORE people will like it than the amount of people who like 'y' as it stands now. (which is a very small amount)

I will NEVER agree with a non-intuitive combat system. And with this random card deck system the controls are very NON-intuitive and I see no way for them to make it intuitive. So it would be wise for them to change course before YES it is too hard or too late to change course.

Currently 1/8 of responses have favored the current combat while 7/8 have stated they either believe it is entirely bad or that it needs reworked. So your circle should have concern for the combat system

I do not respond to you or others with the belief that MY WAY is the ONLY WAY possible, or that it is the RIGHT WAY. I respond to you to give you my point of view and to hope you understand that others have my same point of view.

 

It mainly came from this "They overhaul the combat and now you happen to like the new one and so do I. WINWIN". I got the impression that you expected it to change and everyone would be happy, I misread.

Currently the vote is 60/40 against the system on the actual poll which is drastically different than 1/8, whilst it is still a majority there is the old adage that people who don't like something are far more likely to actively complain than people who do like something, praise, so whether that is reliable at all or not I don't know.

The combat system to me is intuitive, its just clunky and mishandled, with a tweek here or there I see no problem. My view is my view and your view is your view, like you say neither of us are 'right'

 

There are a lot of MMO's that offer combat systems that don't pull you out of the world in order to fight, once you get command of the system. The primary trouble, I think, with Shroud's system is that even once you have good command of the system, you are still going to be forced to "leave the world" in order to deal with the clumsy system, because you HAVE to deal with the tool bar's popping in that unexpected element.

The "unexpected elements" SHOULD be occurring when an enemy jumps unexpectedly onto a rock, or suddenly shoots some unique ray of petrification at you- not something that is sprung on you from the outside that you have to "leave the battle" to deal with. This is the Achilles heel of the system, and is really distracting, to the point that I find myself not playing a game I admittedly supported with a lot of money.

Instead, I've found myself playing Archeage, which has an interesting, varied, positional system of combat which is highly tactical. The largest difference in the two systems is, you feel like you are actually fighting whatever-it-is in front of you, and not battling the games UI itself, if that makes sense. Just making the combat happen within the world adds a huge amount of immersion. You feel like it's your character doing the fighting, and not you. in AA.

In Shroud, I am always drawn out to the UI, made aware of the workings of the mechanics at every stage. This, in my opinion, (as a gaming conceptual designer myself as well as a player), is counterproductive the nature of Shroud of the Avatar- which, after all, is about your character owning his own house and lots of stuff which he can interact with and place, crafting, interacting and roleplaying with others.

I guess that in the end, I think the current way combat things play out in Shroud are just anti-roleplaying friendly to me.

Archeage, while it is full of scammers and killer kiddies, and seems to be run by a bunch of clueless guys who have no idea what the Korean vision of the game is really about, at least offers systems in place- especially combat, which allow a player to feel quite immersed in the world. You aren't pulled out of the world by the UI- in fact- you can set it up to be very nearly totally UI-less.

I realize Shroud of the Avatar is a game with modest resources, and, I am not unhappy exactly, that I backed it quite heavily. I also realize it is not nearly finished.

I am, however, a bit sad that it's ill-advised combat interface makes it so hard for me to be interested, when I play. Maybe fans of card based games find it more fun- I dunno. Try as I might, I just can't find the fire to play here that other games- Archeage, LOTR Online, Fallout III, Neverwinter Nights, the earliest Elder Scrolls games, Ultima Online and the Ultimas and Fallouts before it, gave me.

And, I don't think it's the graphics, the travel map, crafting, housing or anything else that troubles me- it's the combat.

The trick is letting the player fight the monsters, not the UI.

 

Including SotA - it's generally known as the locked glyphs option.

You work in game design. What is wrong with Portalarium's approach of giving each player an option: either locked glyphs or random (or hybrid)? Knowing we are in pre-alpha, let's assume any imbalance between the options will be addressed before release. What is wrong with having a choice? The locked hotbar works just like many if not most mainstream mmos with regard to mechanics in not overly breaking immersion. I'm just curious to hear your reasoning (mainly because your post carries an air of professionalism).

 

Lack of immersion?
So I assume you are ok being pulled out of game action, but then, where is the point creating 3D combat animations and beautiful particle systems?

I think you didn't realize yet we are not complaining about Deck concept (which I find quite interesting ) nor about Portalarium giving choices,
we are complaining about the actual game mechanics because Deck system is pulling our attention out of the action combat, so reducing immersion.
If they address that and they manage to address the actual imbalance between both choices Dynamic and Locked Deck (including combos) then I
have no complains. The problem is, I cant figure out at this level of development how they are going to achieve that goal, and that is my main, and
most likely, most people posting here main concern.

 

Otha's whole reply is about lack of immersion and being forced to "leave the world" in SotA.

He said "you HAVE to deal with the tool bar's popping in that unexpected element".

But if you use a locked hotbar, none of this is the case. He says things like "forced" and "have to", but with the locked option, you are not forced and you DON'T have to. He is comparing SotA to other games, but it is clear he is not comparing SotA with a locked hotbar to other games. He is only comparing the random hotbar option.

He seems very intelligent based on his post. I'm simply asking for his opinion on the locked hotbar since he didn't seem to reference it at all in his post.

Borg: if you find the Deck concept quite interesting as you said, then I believe we are on or at least close to being on the same page. I believe the other issues can be addressed (I understand that you don't believe it, but I do). Either way, the "actual game mechanics" are different between the options of the random hotbar and the fixed hotbar. Otha's post, as far as I can tell, is only referring to the random hotbar, and I just wanted some clarification from him if he is willing to clarify, that's all.