The Combat System....

Why not have the "R" key functional in locked mode for combos only?
Hit R, hit the keys of the two skills you wanna combine, and have that skill execute, with a cooldown triggering on both skills involved?

 

Your reasoning is sound, except for the fact that not only is the locked combat bar completely boring, it is also non-competitive from a PvP standpoint.

 

Have you played the locked bar? Have you compared the focus costs? Check it out, play the locked system, and you will understand the complaints. We aren't saying there is no such THING as locked bar, we are saying that it was overnerfed, in an effort to make the random bar more appealing. So that random would dominate locked in PvP. So that players would be not-so-subtly forced to play random if they wanted to really play the game.
Also, the locked bar can handle ten glyphs AFTER speccing into it. A random deck with good combos and no slugs, with minimum slots (no spec), can field HOW many different abilities?

There are several aspects of the random system that I LIKE. What I hate is having the basic nature of my tactics and powers jumping around willy nilly, being punished for wanting specific powers to be reliable, having to spec not only into slots, but into cost reduction, and into a multitude of little powerups, and to STAND STILL, all so that I can make up for the huge nerfs I get for playing locked.

 

4 at a time, with 1 ability being drawn every 3 seconds and discarded if it isnt used in 6 seconds or so,

Unless you spec into the 3 focus skills you need to make it the hurricane everyone is familair with. 2 of those skills are tier 3 on the focus three, the other one is the hotbar expanding one.

Lock bars have a tier 4 skill under the deck expanding skill that reduced locked glyph focus cost. There is a tier 5 or 6 skill under the deck-building branch that further reduces focus cost of locked and dynamic glyphs.

It takes more skillpoints to get a deck useful than it does to get a locked hotbar useful
Currently you can hybrid locked and deck if you want the benifits of hotbar combat and deck combat combined, but hotbar probly needs combo functionality

And when the set a hard limit on the ammount of passives you can spec into, what are you gonna do with all those extra skillpoints other than spec into becoming more versitile?

 

Yes I have played with every combination (unlocked/locked/hybrid). They are all viable in PVE (haven't played PVP yet in SotA).

I have played several of the games Otha is comparing SotA to, the ones I've played are all very similar (from a combat mechanics standpoint) to SotA with a locked hotbar. I know random glyphs give perks and that the options are not balanced.

Let me (in context) highlight some things he says:

He's a Founder and he is in game design. I just want his thoughts on the locked bar because his post is written as if random glyphs are the only option in SotA. He doesn't sound like PVP is his "thing" (obviously I could be reading too much into his talk about role playing). All of the things he is bringing up completly go away with a locked hotbar. And yes I know you spend more focus and don't get combos right now with a locked hotbar ... if that's all you have to give up to lose all of the negatives, it seems like it is well worth it if immersion is that important to you. That's why the Option is there.

 

It's really kind of a non-option though if you are a min/maxer (i.e. competitive player). That, and it's the best of two EVILS? Let me put it this way: even though I don't like the random glyph system, I like the boring, generic locked hotbar even less. At first I thought I was the only one who felt this way, but as development progresses I'm starting to see that others also share this opinion. It may not be reasonable to expect a complete combat system redo, but I really hope they make enough significant changes to compensate for the negative feedback this weird system is currently receiving.

 

This will be the last I respond to this very discussion between you and I because there is no reason for either of us to beat a dead horse. But I'm no quack nor do I pull out numbers from my ass.

There are more than one poll covering this topic. I feel like there was more than two though OR when I posted my 1/8th calculation the poll YOU used was a lot lower. But I know there were TWO polls that were more on the lines of this poll (link below) which exclaims about 1/8th in favor of the system as it is.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-combat-system.21408/

Now, it's actually even worse than 1/8th. And although the other poll is about 40/60, totaling the polls results in a decent amount of people against the system. I REALLY love the idea of this game and I hope it all the success in the world. But I will not play it if this is what we are given upon release. If you and others happen to like it that is awesome and I hope you enjoy it. But I will continue my travels to find the next MMO that captures my attention. Have a good day!

 

Okay so... Thinking out loud a bit...

How about making 2 Focus trees
Focus (Lock), Focus (Random)

Now place some skills under neath these (well Lock will use most of the Focus tree for random)

(Note I'm not creative with names so bare with me )

Focus (Lock):

Card Control: Increases the number of cards that can be stacked. (This will give Locked decks the ability to stack cards to a max of 5.)
Mental Stacking: Increase the frequency of glyphs being dealt in to your hand. (This will allow you to increase the rate at which stacks will come in to your hand. (Speed will match random card draw speed))
Stacking Control: Allows for more cards to be stacked at once. (allows for more cards to be stacked at once max of 5. (cards to be stack will be selected by user in Deck))
Stack Protection: Allows for stacks to remain in hand longer. (description says it all, at 0 cards wont stack past 1 at 5 cards will stack to 5 and remain for twice as long as the spells CD speed before stack clears)
Advanced Inner Calm: Brings focus cost down to that of a random deck

Note: having a Mental Stack Higher than Stack Protection will result in not being able to get max stack.

Focus (Random) will just be the normal focus deck.

Mental Reflex (Mental Stacking for Random)
Concentration (Stack Protection for Random)
Eidetic Memory (Allows you to lock Glyph in your hand)
Consumption (Increases number of Consumables that you can place in your deck)
Mindfulness (Decreases the Focus cost of your locked glyphs)

And then I believe for simplicity sack a third Focus tree to hold mutual spells such as,
Follow Through,
Heightened Awareness,
Higher Consciousness,
Inner Clam,
Quick Swapping.

Now point wise the to Random and Locked should Equal.
For the locked Inner calm will be used to as a bit of a focus lower but Advance Inner Calm will be
needed to decrease focus to Random Decks focus.

Having 50/50 will not assist you in any way as Locked is ONLY for locked decks and Random is ONLY for random deck

(This is all just my thought of trying to make it a bit more even and fair I know its not perfect but that's just a brain dump of my thoughts atm, I'm sure it can be improved)

 

I am UTTERLY aware of what talents can be taken and what they do. The post you responded to was a suggestion that someone else take a closer look at the arguments they were criticizing.

Yes, the Option to be inferior. You say you've played with a fully locked deck, did you happen to notice how much it blew chunks? Or do you LIKE planting your feet and counting to 80 before you can cut loose? Above @EMPstrike tried to answer my rhetorical question about the options a random deck could include.

JUST AS AN ASIDE, when I spec for locked talents, I take talents all the way to tier 6 in Focus, because the tier 5 cost reducer and the tier 6 fizzle reducer are just worth too much to ignore. To get the cost and fizzle reduction talents, I have to spec into those tier 3 talents just to get there. Thus, when I respec to max out the tier 3 talents you speak of, I save 7 talent points. That's imbalanced, punitively so.

I took all the slot expander talents out. I was left with six slots. So 150% of EMPstrike's estimate there. I did spec into the draw speed, and of course a bit into discard delay, since I wanted to get the tier 5 and 6 cost and fizzle reducers. Thus, Completely ignoring the slot expander talent, taking the two tier three talents available to boost draw rate, giving one cast in, say... every 4 seconds on average. No need to worry about discard speccing really, if I'm just blasting like crazy, so further savings. The costs were lower than locked deck (and I mean with the "locked deck penalty reduction talent" purchased, without isn't even worth considering), and the random costs STILL benefited from the tier 5 focus talent that gave another 10% cost reduction, AND the standing buff that gave 25% cost reduction. The abilities were the exact same as the locked deck, if I didn't stack or combo them. If I did stack and combo, then they hit harder still. I never ever had a moment that I wasn't ready to cast a spell. I built a STUPID deck of just 5 separate beams, with 5 of each, for a 25 card deck of nothing but ranged boom. And I STILL functioned better, faster, and cheaper than my complex melee aoe build. Pathetic. What we are saying is that this needs to be BALANCED. Right now the scale is so out of true that one end is pressed into the floor.

And then there's the ongoing penalties for moving during combat. There is increased fizzle while running, and the standing still buff (which acts as strong incentive to not run, since it builds slowly but vanishes on taking a single step). There's even a debuff now in encumbrance that costs FOCUS for moving. So I get to start every fight with an empty focus bar because I was running with a full inventory. Yay.

 

It needs work doesn't equal against the system especially when there is a specific poll answer that IS against the system, that poll is a much better to me, anyone who thiks this system right now is 'good' needs to really question themselves, but have a good day too, and if you find that MMO let me know, I'm still looking too. (Until sota is out might I add)

I don't have the knowledge that you do, but this is really frustrating about the system, don't punish people enough so they play your niche combat mode.

 

I dont see the hotbar combat as being far weaker than deck combat, i just see that there are only a couple of skills at the moment that people actually use in PvP because the combat is still severely unbalanced. there isnt alot of variety, nto even enough to utilize those 10 slots effectively.

 

You don't think the heavy, arbitrary penalties, limited glyph selection opportunities or massive cooldowns, along with the inability to stack and combo, are huge setbacks for the locked hotbar versus the hybrid?

 

It is inferior from the standpoint of winning a fight easier and quicker
It is superior for immersion / being able to watch the fight instead of the hotbar

So ... pick what is more important to you
- if immersion is the most important to you, use the locked hotbar (you can still win the fights in PVE, it just takes longer)
- if winning fights quicker and easier is most important to you, use the random hotbar

It's a simple trade off. It clearly still needs to be balanced, just like archery, just like light vs heavy armor, just like movement debuffs (or standing still buffs), just like almost everything in this pre-alpha edition of the game (remember the "construction zone" line you have to click every time you play?).

But trying to pick the best of both worlds and complaining because you can't have both "quick and easy fights" plus full immersion and then blaming all of that on the random glyph element ... and then getting all hyped up in the forums as if the Portalarium people don't actually understand (they play the game more than any of us, folks) is just silly. I challenge you, get in the game, walk around and talk to people you haven't met before. Ask them how long they've been playing and how they like the combat system. I've been doing that - the results might surprise you haters.

 

You think you're going to be able to market that? "We have the option to be immersed and suck at PvP/PvM, or you can stare at your hotbar the at least half the time you're fighting, but actually kill stuff. You won't know what stuff you killed, because you'll be looking at the hotbar, but you will kill stuff."

Why not just make a good system that is immersive, intuitive and exciting? Why "you can pick one or the other, and they both don't do it well"?

 

Personally, I don't think it needs to be marketed at all. How many mmo games out there market themselves by showcasing their combat system?

This game has so many things going for it. And it is simply fun. And the in-game community is amazing. Some people are letting their dislike for the combat system out-weight everything else combined - that is an unbalanced perspective.

Options are good. I might market SotA like that. Once balanced, the locked hotbar mechanics will be very similar in almost every way to virtually all current mainstream mmo's. And if you would like to try a completely new fresh approach, SotA has that option as well.

 

Every single one of them. Even single player ones. It's always in the trailers and demos for video games with combat, marketing how cool it looks and how flashy it is or how intuitive or creative it is. That's to say nothing of the reviews on websites and magazines that always have a section dedicated to combat.

Because a lot of people have actually played other games in the last 20 years. SotA doesn't have "so many things going for it," from an objective perspective. It has limited instanced instead of a seamless (or at least seamless-feeling) world, which is the increasing norm for MMOs. It has the ability to cut out huge swathes of players by flipping a switch to play multi- or single-player, whereas more and more games are looking for ways to pull people together in the hundreds at a time (something our engine can't support in SotA). This game is small scale.

And the community? That's definitely subjective. The heavy-handed passive aggression littering these forums makes my ex seem like a swell gal.

No one's "letting" combat outweigh anything. It's a major component of the game. If I play this single player, who cares what community there is? Who cares what houses are available, or that you named one of the streets? This game was advertised with single player/offline accessibility, that means less systems to "win me over". If one of the major ones is controversial, then that's a lot of players who aren't going to buy into it. Options are only options if people actually care about any of them. The polls, from 2013 to now, suggest that the options aren't satisfactory.

 

Here is exactly what you asked:

And I said it doesn't need to be marketed. Which is true, it doesn't. I feel confident in saying not one single game ever has been marketed from the standpoint of "you don't have to stare at a hotbar" - and SotA doesn't need to be marketed with anything about the hotbar referenced, because no other mmo does, nor needs to. Especially when there is the option to set up like the other games if the player wants to. There is no need to mention it in marketing at all. And the trailers/youtube reviews show combat ... that is the animation and graphic effects, not the mechanics. If a SotA trailer happens to show random glyphs popping up, that is OK, it doesn't mean there is a desire nor an intent to market that aspect of the game, nor does there need to be.

Whether the system is a good system or immersive or intuitive or exciting is up for debate. Those are all opinions. We know your opinion. The people I meet in-game generally have the exact opposite opinion, they just aren't forceful about it. That's ok. That's the lion share of the mmo gaming market (as has been stated before, very few of the steam reviews mention combat in a negative way). They don't see combat as the be-all end-all of whether a game is good, especially PVP / PK combat. Virtually zero of them would use the word "griefing" to describe their playstyle as you have about yourself. And virtually zero of them are going to come onto a forum and debate the merits of the combat system, let alone feel the need to vote on something divisive that just doesn't matter that much to them. Their fun is derived mainly from other aspects of the overall experience.

Think about this. The fact that virtually every mmo out there uses the same combat mechanics should tell you how hard it is to be creative in that area. Portalarium dares to be different - I think they have a winner and so do a lot of people. You don't. We get that. We can agree to disagree on whether it is a good or bad system.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe strongly that you could not be more wrong about this conclusion you have reached (again, because you are letting your dislike of the combat system color everything you say about the game and company, you don't even see your defect in that regard).

I am fairly certain the majority of forum goers differ with you strongly on what counts as littering the forums. And if a guy like you calls my behavior "passive aggression", then I'm fine with that. Whatever it is, it is better than discarding all sense of manners and kindness to those who disagree with my perspective.

The game was advertised that way to highlight OPTIONS and early discussion/videos revealed the random glyph combat system. You bought in having had the opportunity to know that from the beginning. People do actually care about the options that you have no use for - you don't seem to be able to grasp that. To you, we are all wide-eyed newbies that just don't get it. To me the newbie is the one that still thinks forum poll results are always meaningful.

 

For mages, yes. High tier spells have logn cooldowns and theres only like 5 abilities people wanna use in PvP: Death touch, healign touch, lightning, confusion, and fire arrow. Some of the spells cost a ton in deck mode which makes them hurt pretty darn bad in locked mode, like lightning. So that, and im sure some other ability, probably eats up a ton of focus.

With a locked hotbar or hybrid you are going to field more abilities than you do with a deck. Im nto aware of anyone who puts no mroe than 2 or 3 of a unique ability in thier deck, and most people put 4 or 5 of most so they have maybe 6 or 7 unique abilities in their deck. You can have 10 different abilities on the hotbar, which gives you 9 other abilities to run thru while one is on cooldown and gives you more unique things to do in a fight. At the moment, theres not alot of stuff peopel wanna do in a fight. Gust, heal, lightning/deathtouch, confuse and soemtimes fire arrow. thats still gonna be half a lockbar empty and only 3 of those are damage dealing, 2 of them with somewhat lengthy cooldowns. On top of that, mages dont hardly do any autoattack damage at the moment, because nothing does in PvP, autoattacks jsut dont hurt at all at the moment.

So its not that i dont think hotbars suck for PvP, i jsut dont think its entirely the hotbar's fault. Theres alot of other stuff thats not right that effect hotbar vs deck, especially the lack of ways to deal damage to people efectivly limiting the glyphs people use entirely.

 

Some good points EMPstrike ... I've started watching PVP fights more in-game and started making a list of the skills that get used during the fights. So far the most different skills I've seen used is 7 by any given PVP fighter. The winner of a recent tourney only used 5 skills total in the fight I watched closely. Also, they pretty much all use combos and I've never heard one in-game complaining about the random element or even the combat system in general. For sure, Death Touch and Healing Touch are always in the list - usually Fire Fist as well for the DoTs. Most PVPers I've seen actually fight so far use a physical weapon for the auto-attacks and they also have at least one related skill (like Thrust for a blade) for the combos. That being said, usually every other skill is in the magic tree. To me, that's just one more area that needs balance (magic vs physical or light vs heavy armor related skills), but I'm sure Portalarium will get to that in the proper time.

 

I think people who are interested in fighting more than role-playing and trading are being nurfed. I know I perform slower on a random yet more powerful deck. I have also heard new PVP player and would be PVP players complain about seeing 70-100 level players fighting each other outside Owl's Head. They said these powerful players made them feel as if they would never stand a chance to get great in the game. If you are held back a little until more people join the game, maybe it is better for everyone; although less them optimum for you. I do not know that this is true. It just appears that it might be true because if this random deck system slows me down, it must also affect you. But I really appreciate SoTA getting the creatures and bandits I fight, especially ranged ones, to move more like a human on release 16. I would rather have that than a complicated, innovative combat system. I was used to everything I fight standing still and attacking me. I was fighting a lich last week in the Challenge Dungeon in Braemar and thought about how the economic theory I had created in 1995 worked with something I read in the Economist. I thought about economics while fighting a lich! Thank you SoTA for making things move and try get away or attack me from a distance with arrows. It's about time! Now all SoTA has to do is get the AI to ambush PVPer's while they are traveling through a narrow pass with their packs full of loot. They would not be killed, but they would learn to have one person scout ahead from above to see if anyone is their. After all, they took the AI's loot and it wants it back. Solo players could also have this experience by traveling with an AI companion.