The false "immersion" of being directionless

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vladamir Begemot, Oct 1, 2019.

  1. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Avatar

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    To be clear, if you're asking about creating various instances to appropriately reflect different quest outcomes, I'm not entirely sure. To be honest. I vaguely remember it being mentioned years ago, during a telethon, and an explanation along the lines that it would be difficult to implement due to player housing.

    However, if you're asking about a story and quest system where a player's actions have consequences and those consequences would in turn affect the world; then yes, they stated how this would be an integral feature in the game. As you mentioned, LB has stated this multiple times and it clearly has never come to fruition. While I agree that I don't think they were/are lying, I do believe they drastically overstated the games capabilities in this respect.
     
  2. Cora Cuz'avich

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    To clarify my question, were details ever given as to how choices would have consequences? Or was it always "we have some ideas how to do this in multiplayer environment, but we don't want to give anything away" yet nothing ever materialized?
     
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  3. Cordelayne

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    No, not to my knowledge. It's always been something discussed but never with any concrete details.
     
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  4. Dartan Obscuro

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    To clarify this a bit based on how I understand it. Let's say the player did something that set Ardoris on fire destroying the town. It wouldn't be hard to have that choice have that consequence for those players but since it's multiplayer other players would be able to go into Ardoris which would be weird. You would see "Come join us in Ardoris for X event" or "Visit my vendor" and not be able to. Or if you had a house there then you would be cut off from it. Similarly, they could have implemented sieges where the town was swapped out for an adventure scene with cultists running through the streets but that would potentially lock players out of their houses or block their stage of the quest line.

    There is at least once instance (that I can think of ATM) where they experimented with changing the game state based on choices e.g. a character will get swapped out depending on where you are in the story. But that doesn't happen often. So I think they definitely worked on this but ran into issues.
     
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  5. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Nah, it would be relatively easy to solve the instance thingie with quests having real consequencies. We have discussed this at length with the devs during events. However they don't see the ROI that we the players think that we see.
    So it is not that they cannot do it, it is just that they don't think that it is worth it.

    Here is one of my many summaries of what one could do with the existing tech they already have:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...line-quests-spoilers.99894/page-2#post-877671

     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
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  6. Vladamir Begemot

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    That's sad :(

    Even cleaning up the biggest in your face problems would not worth it?
     
  7. Jaesun

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    One thing to also consider, do new players want to do the outskirts or is it they don’t know about them or can’t find them?

    Over the last few months speaking and helping new people I kept hearing from some, they just were not interested in doing the Outskirts. They just wanted to “start playing” their own way.

    Of course as someone who crafts, I’m like do you know how much crafting xp you can get from doing all 3?? Why on earth would you not go and do those areas? But sometimes people just like to do their own thing and that’s fine.

    The free Row Lot Deed for finishing just one is a very good thing. That at least exposes them to the outskirts experience.

    I think they just don’t like forcing Arabella onto the player. Some way to have her organically integrated to the finishing of an outskirts area would be a good idea. Just don’t force that onto the player.
     
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  8. Paladin Michael

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    Those people who like to do things their own way are not those who leave, because of the UI, Quests, Journal, ...
    That's not the problem. They like to explore the world and find out about other stuff.

    I think, what we are talking about here are people, who come in and don't know about what to do right now.
    They feel a kind of lost because of the lands, the unsorted quests in Journal and a few other "UI" stuff ...
    They even don't know, that it was intented to do the Outskirts parallel.

    Therefor it would be good, that Arabella leads them. Nobody has to follow her instructions, but a new player should receive them to make a choice ...
     
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  9. majoria70

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    Actually I think that the journal should lead them. If there were tabs in the journal to lead the player it could say to progress this Quest speak to Arabella who is in whichever place she's in and with instructions on how to get there.

    The journal should be a wonderful thing not like it is now. It should also have other tabs like an achievement tab, daily Quest tab, and more information the player needs. It should show which are the main quests, which are the daily Quest, which are the crafting quests, which are the PVP quests, and even fishing quests.

    No one should be left lost and confused without knowing what is available to do in this game. It should tell of the housing system, the vendor system, the mail system, the music system, and on and on. There should be no wondering on the part of a player who's playing this game. They should see a list of achievements and goals and much to do , but at this point that's not what happens. They come into the game just wondering and wondering till someone explains it all to them which is not a bad thing but it is not the way it should be for the kind of game this has become. We need a wake-up call.

    We wanted it to be made a bit different but at this point it is not. So no arguing or whatever can change that fact. We just need to do what's best for the game and that is not to continue on this lost and confused without giving the player information if they need or want it. We don't have to force them go find it if they don't want to do that .

    Then they can just look at their Journal tabs to find what to do or they can do it themselves but in the long run they will have that information In front of them if they so choose to use it.

    We just need to move forward to get this game to a better place. A game that doesn't show what's possible is no game at all or very little.

    So we need to get a grip and get some of these basic things in the game. We have a lot to this game we are just missing too many basics for the kind of game it is and has become.

    I am talking multi-player so FYI.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  10. Paladin Michael

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    I just made a thread about "consequences" of our game behavior and expectations about that in the past ...
     
  11. Spoon

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    The discussions have usually been around the Love quest line and the baddie in Ardoris still being there when you come back.

    Or the black arrow story with the same issue.

    Where the response to the suggestion of single player basements was that they would rather work on new quest lines than redo old.

    When it comes to the suggestion I outline with an early scene (next to outskirt) being single player and have extreme consequences. Then the response was that making such triple scenes would cost more than they are worth since they couldn’t be made to have return value.

    EDIT
    Should note that I disagree with those sentiments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  12. Jason_M

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    I like @Vladamir Begemot 's OP idea of sign posting the earliest quests. Let the players go free and wild after they've taken a sip from each of the cups they are inevitably intended to drink.

    Additionally, I think it would be fantastic if your quest status could be recognized by nearby town driers who could "hear ye, hear ye" some relevant news, or for the more clandestine activities, people could spread more rumors in taverns.

    For example, a town crier in Ardoris might say something aloud about the black arrow quest if the nearby avatar hasn't completed it, or a drunk off duty soldier in Resolute might mention the Courage club.

    This would mean the NPCs respond to the players status as well as say things that the player can see but not those nearby (technology that seems to be used frequently already).

    This could be extended to nearby adventure scenes. For example, in Jaanaford, "Rumors abound of escaped criminals escaping and disappearing into the sunless shadow of the Nightshade volcano" (sunless Barrens).

    Could be a great way to get people exploring, catching quest threads, and talking to NPCs more often.
     
  13. Astirian

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    The enhanced editions of Baldur's Gate do direction well.

    The Journal is split into chapters but common to each chapter is an evolving quest called "Important Events".

    But it's also tabbed. There's a Quests tab and a Journal tab.

    Quests display actionable things and side quests whereas Journal is added info and musings. Hints basically.
     
  14. Astirian

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    Oh! Also a really cool mechanic is if you buy a couple of drinks at the tavern, you get rumors. :D
     
  15. Paladin Michael

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    Yes, those suggestions were made in the past, too. Also the Oracle (as the person who's watching us the whole time!) could provide information to us more often :)

    Unfortunately, there's nobody to do those stuff and "feed" the NPC's.

    I doubt that anyone other than Sannio knows the quests at all or has time to test!
    That was Lum's job. And he alone was overwhelmed with it.
    The technical state of the "quest engine" probably does not support these things either.

    At the very beginning, I asked, if the matrix was already integrated, recording all our decisions and deriving consequences in the process.
    I think this crucial part of the program was simply "forgotten". But that's what would be necessary to make the game more interesting and individual for each player!

    You would talk to a beggar or someone else and, depending on whether you started a quest or not, get information about it!

    The oracle could judge us by our actions (in fact, since everything is recorded!) and give hints ...

    This would be a great immersion! :)
     
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  16. kaeshiva

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    As Majoria pointed out above (referencing the proposal in the original post) I think a lot of the problems could be fixed by having a quest journal that is actually usable and fit for purpose.
    I don't think we need to hand hold players as such by having an npc show up and teleport them - I'd find this annoying, to be honest.
    To follow your progression example, you go do solace bridge and progress to the point where Stanley is trying to send you to Ardoris. At this point, having someone show up and wave their arms around and tell you about blood river and highvale - fine. These items would get added to your journal and now you know about them and can go at your leisure. This would be more than sufficient, provided that the journal:
    • Actually gave you an indication of what to do next rather than a vague, often incorrect soundbyte (doesn't acknolwedge steps you have completed, isn't clear on where to go)
    • Gave some sort of ranking/colorcode/tier indication/skull indication/whatever of the level of fighting you'd have to do to progress that step
    • Had the ability to click on it and open a map showing YOU ARE HERE and where the quest was. This is pretty basic journal functionality many games already have.
    At this point, you're stood in Soltown thinking, what do I do next? The Ardoris step has no fighting, so its an easy progression and look, its not far away.
    Then you get sent to shuttered eye, and woopsy, that's a tier 3 or 4 or whatever it is, those two other starting-to-outskirts things in your journal have more potential.
    Player can go figure out how to get there. You are here. Destination is here. They might not know about the boats to Ely-Aerie, but you could still get to blood river walking 'round the long way if you know, you had a map.

    In order to help new player navigation/questing, we need to fix:
    • The quest dialogue system
    • The journal
    • The map
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  17. Ken Parallax

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    They should just drop new players in Braemar & let them discover the virtue quests on their own. :D
    The irony is that with a more complete and established game this would be fine!
     
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  18. Sol Stormlin

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    Do people even care about questing? You can get on YouTube and find a tutorial and just click through the dialogue, and complete it in no time without even knowing what the quest is. People don't play this game to quest as far as I can tell. They play to make money, or play to stream on Twitch to make money, or play to be a high-level crafter, adventurer or pvper to make money.
     
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  19. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    *raises hand*
    I like questing. Preferably without hints. (except for the students of virtue which I would never recommend without hints)

    *looks in wallet*
    Then I must be doing it wrong. I'm here for entertainment and fun, which I pay for.
    Now mind you I do trade but that is to get other/more shiny pixels to play with.

    And given the viewer numbers I think none of the streamers make a profit, unless you brought the viewers with you, if you want revenue you want the big titles.
     
  20. Vladamir Begemot

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    Lol! Me too. Should have sold everything at launch. I did get some out two months ago for travel, but the quantity going in vs the quantity that has ever come out is not a money maker, that is for sure.

    Who in their right mind would be trying to make money at this point? If you recoup losses, do it, but it's pretty obvious Shroud will never attract another RMT'er, since Chris said he's going to kill RMT at some point.

    If that's the case, the Port might as well close shop now, because there plan is to drive away anyone like that.
     
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