The Oracle Paradox

So I just finished the quests!

I must say, not much has changed about my opinion of the Oracle. In fact, many of my previous suspicions have been confirmed. At least...

Spoiler

Arabella called the Oracle an "infernal machine" and clearly despises it

and I could only infer from the rest of the conversation that Lord British agrees with her.

So "The Oracle Paradox" continues...

Basically, because of some "acts of stealing" that weren't clearly indicated as such (i.e. "stealing" from the dead residents of Tenebris Harbor), Jaan's virtue rating of Truth went down so low, that there was no way to bring it back to normal just following the quest line. (Does ANYTHING in the "Path of Truth" actually increase Truth virtue? If so, there is no indication of that happening.)

As far as evaluations along the other virtues go... I honestly have NO idea which actions (or non-actions) were used to determine Jaan's level of spirituality, justice, humility, etc. It might as well be totally arbitrary because the "rules" that have been written by the Oracle (i.e. the programmers) are basically obscured, and there are assumptions being made about what these various virtues "mean" that doesn't necessarily jive with what a player might hold as a meaning for the same virtue.

This all leaves me super confused as a player.

I mean... philosophically I'm "O.K" with Jaan aligning with Chaos, having experienced that the "virtues are too rigid". But under what sort of scenario where a player really wants to "align with Virtue" and is going to get to the end of Episode 1 only to realize how seemingly arbitrary it all is?

I anticipate that many players are going to get super pissed to find out that what they thought was "impeccable virtue" they had been displaying

Spoiler

was NOT written that way in the prophecy.

Is that intentional? If so, I would actually say "KUDOS" for having the innards to challenge players' belief systems like that. However, I'm guessing it wasn't intentional.

Storywise- Why does the Oracle even still exist at this point in the story? Having now played through it all, I still cannot see an angle where anybody would view the Oracle at best as a doddering old relic, and at worst, something which needs to be destroyed for the safety of all.

As a player with a character dedicated to the true Virtue of Justice (not the Oracle's twisted sense of it) I can see little option for me to remain true to my own values, without having Jaan do whatever she can to turn Outlanders away from the Oracle, and her distorted sense of Virtue.

Only Chaos can restore Order now!

 

The virtue measurements are as arbitrary as any other Calvinist-predestination system of measurement. (which is alluded to in the dialog; some paths more than others)

 

I believe the Calvinist might declare that most events are predestined, and therefore an attempt to "live a virtuous life" would be meaningless, since people don't really have free choice in the matter.

It's an interesting philosophy to consider, but I don't see how it would be congruent with the game mechanics. For example a "Steal All" button makes it clear that one is about to commit an anti-virtuous act, however it only underscores that they actually have a choice in the matter. If it all were predetermined according to the "Prophecy" then there wouldn't be a choice..? Maybe I'm just super confused here.

Is the player supposed to be able to build a character around certain "acts of virtue"? And if so, how are they to do that without knowing what the actual rule written into the program code is that determines whether an act is virtuous or not?

Also- are we getting a virtue reset with the quest reset?

 

Keep on keepin on ! Thanks @Jaanelle DeJure

 

The fact that Evard wrote down a summary of your virtue (the prophecy) centuries ago implies that, well, you don't! The Oracle agrees with Evard. Arabella does not.

The details aren't quite finalized but there will be a virtue normalization, so that your general arc will be preserved but it will be with a tight enough range that it is easy to change (so if you stole 90,000 pieces of home decor you'll be able to fix that through normal gameplay)

 

Only 90000... seems to me like a petty highway robber hahaha

 

Got it! OK just making sure I am understanding the situation correctly. I still think it is a little confusing... perhaps intentionally so...

I still don't feel like I'm putting it all together storywise. Maybe it would help to flush out more details a bit more in the dialogues. Though I am now looking through transcripts of the conversations with Arabella in sotawiki and can begin to understand some of her remarks about the Oracle and Lord British in a different light.

So... Arabella told Jaan that she needs to see the Oracle because "prophecies have foreseen the path" and yet Arabella does not agree with Evard or the Oracle...? Interesting.

Arabella indicates that Lord British's relationship with the Oracle is "one question I cannot answer for you" yet implies that the presence of the Oracle and relative peace in Novia is surely "no coincidence."

I suppose one big question here is about whether or not Lord British and Arabella are seeing eye-to-eye on various things. Intentionally silent?

All in all, I find myself at this point engaged by the underpinning philosophical discussion here, and I want to make sure that Jaan is "entering the story" in a way that is congruent with how I feel about things.

So basically at this point, if Evard and the prophecies are basically claiming that there is no free will, then the Virtues are devoid of any true meaning. If an Avatar kills babies, then it was meant to be. But being an Avatar, their actions supposedly define what virtue is. It's circular reasoning... a philosophical house of cards.

And if that's the case, then the only rational choice is to embrace the Path of Chaos. We should remain agnostic about whether or not there is "some higher order" present, while also claiming that, if there is a "higher order" it will only emerge through Chaos. But the Path of Chaos need not abandon entirely the concept of Virtue... only the assumption that they need be defined in rigid terms... that an Avatar is required to "set the example" of Virtuous behavior, and further that these Acts of Virtue must be essentially "certified" by the Oracle, or else they are not considered to be valid.

Sounds fair. I'm assuming that "through normal gameplay" will include some additional feedback mechanism to let a player know which direction they are moving with respect to the various virtues.

Jaan isn't a "virtue bunny" by any means. However, she's not quite as dastardly as the game currently makes her out to be. However, she does prefer the black shroud from a fashion standpoint.

Thanks for responding!