The PvP Enigma

I just wanted to note that if anyone is using the "rare weapons" argument about full loot... please remind them that Lord British has made it clear on MULTIPLE occasions this will not be a "grind" for items game and that rares/heroic weapons will not exist. Its a good reason to hate games like WoW that force you through that goofiness.

 

This part is the key: The toxic part of the human nature does not need help to come out in the public, anonymous, venue.

This statement says there is a certain level of toxic behavior already inherent in public, anonymous, venues. Full loot can be a tool for this, why add it if it's not the best solution for the goals of the game?

You are crossing the streams here.
1: What I am saying is why would anyone bother with mythical epic uber weapons. They would only be crafted and no one would be buying. Trivial is an exaggeration, of course, but then again, subtlety on the internet goes over real well. Just like sarcasm.
2: I did not accuse anyone of hostility, the language IS hostile in nature, I pointed it out.

 

That's how great innovative ideas happen. This game will reshape the way games are made...

You can see the players in game that you want to see. It will be no different than being on a pvp server as the server you are on will be only pvp people.

 

People would still use the mythical weapons when mob hunting, dungeon crawling etc. or even to show them off as trophies.
They just wouldn't use these weapons when they are going out expecting and looking for a PvP encounter, or participating in a guild battle.

In UO for example, vanquishing and silver weapons, even power weapons, were very useful in dungeons. I just wouldn't arm myself with a vanquishing weapon when expecting to PvP.

 

Sounds like you are modeling PvP economic impacts on some legacy system. How does that factor in with SPO/FPO/OPO? Wouldn't people that want to carry those mythical weapons just change modes if they were worried about losing it?

Are you wanting to have a 4th option? OPvPO, Full PvP full loot, unable to switch to SPO/FPO. Why, when the PvP could be designed from the ground up to work with all the modes. The UO model does not fit, too many things are different with SotA.

 

Sure. Great. Another useful feature of the game. My weapon looting argument still applies.

I'm not asking for a 4th option, since it sounds to me like we already have the choice to play in a full PvP environment if we want.
Switching to FPO to arm yourself with uber weapons to reduce your risk of losing them is fine by me.
I still wouldn't use those uber weapons when out with the intent to PvP. Unless I had one I'm willing to lose.

I simply used the prioritizing of what weapon weapon you would arm for PvP based on UO.. I'm not asking for this game to be UO.

 

Would that mean there is a set of gear for PvP - gear easily replaced; PvE - best gear available.

And would that mean SPO - PvE gear; FPO - PvE gear; OPO - PvP gear

Which in turn means PvP would never have that mythical weapon.

Now don't get me wrong, if the dev's deem full loot as a good supportive feature to have in the grand scheme of things, I say go for it. But I am sure there are better methods available to intertwine PvP into as many aspects of the game as possible.

 

OPO doesn't put us in PvP mode, so why change modes? The only thing you do is turn of PvP.

Do you go out to PvP with your most difficult to replace gear? That's a question you have to ask yourself. You sure can! If we can loot other people's weapons and armor in SotA then UO is a great example of how that whole system works. If you want to take the risk of losing your best gear you can but you will likely find a situation you didn't plan for and lose that stuff.

If they don't allow looting of players weapons and armor then you are right this is some legacy system we are talking about. However if they do then that so called legasy system is the system that will make you choose "do I take my chances losing this? It will make me more effective yes, but can I replace this stuff every week?"

 

The economic driver and the combatant removal mechanic don't have to be the same thing. Separating them allows for greater choices & options in solutions.

Narrowing scope to one solution, before a single hour of public play testing has been done, is not innovative. Free your mind! Use the power of imagination!

But in support of what Ristra just said, full loot can work as an economic motivator, if implemented properly. In much the same way, PvE loot can be, too.
IMO: To date, no game has done so, and there's no indication from Portalarium they have any intention of using it, nor adding in the compensating consumption mechanisms that would permit it to be constructive, economically.

 

A question I have is this:

If this game is not made to be pure gear-centric, what would be the purpose of looting players?

 

@Ristra
No. I am saying it is a choice. You choose what to wear depending on what you are doing… Simple.
I associate more risk with PvP then dungeon crawling.

When I am actively seeking to PvP, I expect to die more often then when fighting Mobs.
If I am entering into a guild battle, Odds are pretty good that I will die, and.. (In a full loot system) the odds are good that my stuff will be looted by my enemy. (Hopefully by my guild mates first). Therefore, entering this scenario, I will bring a good weapon that I am OK with losing.
If I own MANY magic weapons, I may choose to bring them into battle. If I only have a few good magic weapons, I would probably not bring them to the battle field.

See Below Quote to back up what I mean..

@Seon
The point of looting other players is to end up with more gear than you have, or you can sell it, or you can donate it to your guild.
In the case of guild wars, they now have less gear and need to spend resources to replace the lost gear.
Looting of gear is still important in a non gear centric game.
Not to mention making it harder for them to come back to battle right away.

 

One reason is to make them go back and re-equip (and suffer the penalty of loss). On the other hand the victor gets the spoils. It is nice to get a suit of armor and a nice sword as loot. Not only did you cripple the other guy till he re equips you can now reuse or melt those times down to ingots to make the items you need.

Looting items is better than gold.

 

Looting players is important for the same reason that many object to Open Loot. It throws a wrench into your operations, which tactically speaking, is important. If there wasn't a very good reason behind full loot, people wouldn't object to it so strenuously.

 

Another Reason for looting..

To make up for all the gear that was looted from me

BALANCE!

 

Man, by posting my last post, I have deleted what I was going to cut and paste into this post. @#%$*^@#I%!!!!!! It was going to be a long one…
I just finished reading this thread in it's entirety.. From page 1… Had tons of quotes and replies and now I lost them! !@#(!@!!
Instead, I will summarize everything into a few comments.. Or at least try.

From page 1 to 4.. It was the usual unconstructive emotional debate that we all too often encounter. Both sides are guilty.
Things got more cohesive for a while afterwards.. From what I gathered, the Anti-PvP side (which turns out to be less anti-pvp then they sometimes seem) want meaningful PvP. Incentive based, story based, resource based etc… I get that. I think the Pro-PvP side gets that as well.

Where I see the gap, is that the pro-PvP wants incentive based PvP AND open PvP.. The ability to PK with the preference lying in Full Loot.
I support this and see it as possible. I don't understand why the other side can't fathom the possibility of having both.

Why can't we have guild/faction/resource/motivated PvP and the ability to PK as well?

What pisses me off the most about Trammel type situations is that, Griefing is still possible, harassment is still possible.. BUT I cannot kill you to shut you up or stop you. Sure.. I can report you. But how lame is that. Really… At least in open PvP, I can attack you if you annoy me.

I keep reminding myself that in SOTA, so far, we are limited to ONE character. Unless you buy another account.
this mean no Alternate blue character to support your Red Character.
If SOTA implements a STIFF penalty system for PKs, it would hardly be an issue. There would hardly be any reds I argue.
Those in existence would have to band together in a Bucc's Den type town, which I think is pretty cool.

The other big gap is full loot vs No Loot vs Partial Loot.
I believe the few posts above this one are touching this subject and there are threads in existence on this topic so I will not elaborate.

 

We do not know how PvP will be enabled. We do know it's a choice. Will SPO and FPO be PvP? Don't think so.

Switching to SPO/FPO takes the PvP factor out. Also takes the risk of losing gear out. Now we are in the Fel/Tram debate. Why go down this road? I can see the dev's going with full loot if they have a system built around it. I can't see them going with full loot while basing the structure of the game around a method of avoiding PvP all together, makes full loot pointless as far as economic impact is concerned. Tactics is not what I am getting at, as I listed a quick idea how to handle tactics without full loot

Was Fel/Tram a good thing for PvP with full loot in mind? Unless there is that 4th option for OPvPO I don't think full loot is that great of an idea.

 

How about a higher durability hit on your gear when PvPing? Break their gear and they are still hit with the same tactic of full loot.

 

Or tactically remove the combatant from the battle via -any- other means, and optionally add in whatever economic mechanic you wish. More choice, greater freedom in design.

 

nope. They still keep the gear and get it repaired. Weapons and armor won't be gone forever. I would rather loot the gear personally. However some people's tactics will force them to break the hell out of it. (Might be my tactic too. still deciding).

 

The way durability has been described the last I heard is gear can be repaired but only so many times. Eventually the gear will break and be removed, gone forever (or at least house decoration).

Killed > leave field to repair > killed again > leave to repair > killed > gear destroyed. Add/remove as many repairs as you like to fit how fast you want gear removed from the game. Repairing costs resources (gold/ingots/etc)

Anyway, it's not really important, I am saying full loot quickly runs down the Fel/Tram path when there is SPO/FPO/OPO With Fel/Tram there was additional housing plots available, don't think house plots are going to be part of the equation this time.