The PvP Enigma

"Real World PvP"? The only real world PvP is out there in the real world, not in games. Also, just to be clear, this isnt a medieval sim. It is a fantasy Multi Mode Online Role Playing Game. . There is nothing "Real World" about it.

Also about the "Why be at war with just a guild if you don't want to PvP" question:

Guild warfare means that a guild chooses to declare war on another guild. If the challenge is accepted, then the members of those two guilds can attack each other anywhere. Its not uncommon to have two PvE guilds that have quite good OOC relations to do some PvP for change of pace, without wanting to have every random person drop by. Some people might just not like to have indiscriminate PvP, but rather keep it to a closed circle. This way everyone truly can enjoy the game the way they want.

 

Well, this is a role playing game, and even though the KGB, for example, was primarily an Anti-PK guild, we also took part in a series of guild wars for role playing purposes. The advantage of a guild war in UO is that you could declare war on another guild, and if accepted, you could attack their innocent (blue) members without getting a flagged as a criminal to the rest of the population, and if you killed a rival guild member, you wouldn't get a murder count.

If SotA has a criminal justice system similar to UO, then guild wars should be governed by laws of warfare, not criminal law.

 

I agree with that as well. I think they should be flagged only to the opposing guild and any of their allies currently fighting the guild you are supporting.

 

Aye, Newbs will only be gankeable by other newbs.

 

That's not what I mean. I was referring to someone commenting that crafters in a PvP flagged guild should be exempt from the PvP war..
I am saying any member of a warring guild should be flagged.

If I stumble across the shop of my enemy, sure. I should be allowed to buy from him.
It is not the sale that flags him but being my enemy..

 

Right on. Everybody is in agreement. This thread has been solved finally. PvP is now totally an undebatable conversation for SotA. LoL

 

Well several points made do have an undeniable logic, so perhaps thats what helped

 

Although the mythical middle ground may not yet be found. I have seen some agreements.

It might be my imagination but I feel like some progress has been made over these 20 pages.

 

Sure, I'm fine with that, since crafters can also have combat skills as well as crafting skills. In a guild war, they should definitely be lawful targets.

 

I agree with that! Yes it is a significant step down but if the guild wars in PVP area should i be labeled a criminal for helping one guild or another? That kind of ruins the social interactions with guilds you may be friends with although you yourself may not be in a guild, example suppose you wanted to take a hill but the rival guild owns it, i want to help you because i am friends with you and your guild, should i be penalized for having friends? thats kind of what i stating.

 

No. No more than if I attack someone from a rival guild. That is not a criminal act. That is an act of war, and soldiers aren't criminals if they obey the laws of war. So if you help a guild that is in a guild war, you are not flagged as a criminal, but you are flagged as a participant in the guild war, and are subject to attack for your actions, but ONLY by members of the rival guild. If you are in an Open PvP area, someone else can attack you, but THEY would be flagged as a criminal for attacking you without cause, because that would be a criminal act.

If you are an accomplice to acts of war, then yes, you are responsible for your actions, and you should be subject to retribution under the rules of guild wars.

 

I think sides will be determined before the hex loads. There are many ways to do this from making you join a raid group with them to forcing you to choose to having you set some quest active when you leave town. I think the instancing system will allow them to avoid mixing people flagged due to faction / guild wars with randoms and criminals. Resolving the flagging of neutrals was a huge mess in Lineage2 (and I assume UO) so I'd think they'd just avoid it.

 

Open PvP means Open PvP, which to me means guild wars, thieves, criminals, neutrals, and anyone else who decides to flag Open. If you flag for Open, it's just one big party, and every one flagged is invited.

 

Prime Rib's comment got me thinking about interactions in Open PvP between participants in a guild war, and other players. If you are out adventuring with your buddy, and he is a member of a guild at war, and you are not, but you are grouped together. There are a number of different cases to consider.

Non rival guild attacks:

1. Your buddy is attacked by a criminal, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the criminal. What is your status?
2. Your friend attacks a criminal, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the criminal. What is your status?
3. Your friend attacks an innocent, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the innocent. What is your status?
4. An innocent or a criminal attacks you first (which makes the innocent a criminal). n the fight, you heal your friend and attack the criminal. What is your status?

Case 1: you are not flagged for anything. You can always attack a criminal, and even though you healed someone who is participating in a guild war, this isn't a guild war action, so you aren't flagged as a participant in the guild war, either.

Case 2: Same as Case one. With criminals, it doesn't matter who attacks first.

Case 3: By attacking an innocent, your friend becomes flagged as a criminal. If you try to heal him, you should get a warning that you will be flagged as a criminal for healing him. If you attack the innocent, you should get the same warning. If you heal/attack anyway, or if you have turned the warnings off, you are flagged as a criminal. Being in a group does not excuse criminal acts. If you attack the innocent first, the same thing applies to you friend.

Case 4. Same as Case 1. It doesn't matter if the criminal attacks you or your friend, everyone can attack a criminal.

Rival guild attacks.

1. Your buddy is attacked by a rival guild member, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the rival guild member. What is your status?
2. Your friend attacks a rival guild member, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the rival guild member. What is your status?
3. An opposing guild member attack you, and in the fight, you heal your friend and attack the rival guild member. What is your status?
4. You attack an opposing guild member.

Case 1. This is a little more involved. If you attack the opposing guild player before healing your friend, you should get a warning for a criminal act, and risk being flagged as a criminal, since the other player is an innocent to you. If you try to heal your friend first instead, you should get a warning for taking part in a guild war. If you flag for the guild war, then you can attack the opposing guild member and they can attack you, and no criminal flags.

Case 2. Same as Case 1. Doesn't matter who attacks first, it's still a guild war matter if you heal your friend first, and a criminal matter if you attack the other player.

Case 3. By attacking you first, the other player flags as a criminal, which in effect negates his guild war flag. You can attack him and heal your friend without being flagged for anything, since you can always attack a criminal, and by becoming a criminal, he forfeits the protection he would otherwise have that discourages you from helping your friend.

Case 4. You are flagged as a criminal. Your friend can attack the other player as part of the guild war, but if your friend heals you, he should be warned about becoming a criminal, which would make him subject to attack by everyone.

It can get pretty complicated, but it's a good thing that computers can keep track of these kind of things, and sort it out. For players, even though it can be complicated, it all comes down to doing the right thing. If you commit a criminal act, you become a criminal, subject to criminal laws. If you commit an act of war, you become subject to the laws governing wars, in this case, guild wars.

Did I miss any cases?

 

It's really messy. This is an L2 fraps of open PvP in a non siege zone guild war:


2 fists = guild war
Purple is a 30s criminal flag
He goes red at the end killing a non warred, non flagged person attempting to rez.

Any attacks flag you as criminal. Any heal / buff on a flagged person flags you. AoEs hit flagged people and flag you.

This isn't my fraps, I'm actually on the opposing / losing side. But it's a good one to see the flagging mess.

 

Very sound points. That seems logical, and I hope that's how it plays out in game.

 

Thanks. I see things like this as a software system design , and submitting things like this on the forums as a form of peer review of the design, which is something I do routinely as a software engineer, although I usually am working on avionics software design and development rather than game designs, but the process can be usefully applied to game development as well.

 

Case one on guild warring is what im hoping for, except when your friend is in a guild warm, the enemy guild comes upon him, i scroll to flag for guild war picking one or the other side 1. for guild blue and 2. for guild red.

 

Since you aren't a member of either guild, I don't think you should just be able to pick a side. You have to commit an act either for or against one side or the other, but as I indicated, it should be fine line between being flagged for the guild war and being flagged as a criminal.

 

ok so killing off somone from another guild isnt act enough for you? Or healing your butt when your down low and sweating bullets, isngt enough of an act for you to pick a side? If you cant do that then i will have revert back to my original feeling about guilds ( i was trying to avoid it!! but oh well) If your going to war against others guild or not you need to just go PVP and forget PVE! There should be no warring in PVE whether your guild or not doesnt matter no pvp in pve, if you want to experience pvp there you go a reason for PVE to go there, and experience it! You shouldnt be able to kill of any players in PVE land or if slider is to PVE! You want to pvp then stay in pvp land or slide that thing over to PvP! Why should you be able to kill in pve land and we as pvprs cannot? That isnt fair at all! Sorry had to put it out there on the board guild wars is a way to have pvp and then pat each other on the back and give stuff back to each other! go to an arena if you want sort of PVP! Thats my opinion!