Themo: end of release feedback

I would appreciate some thought or info on how you plan to do this. If you discussed it during the telethon event I'd love if you could mention a time stamp so I know where to check out the video. Currently it is not fun to micromanage all the skills in hopes of min/maxing skills up.

If this is going in now I'll give you feedback on it, otherwise I'll hold off until R26 for feedback based on the changes you make.

Can't speak for high level because, as stated above, I haven't even hit MID level yet since last wipe. Many of the magic based passives seem to have no intelligent rhyme or reason when they level. The deck swapping passive NEEDS to not lock out the mage required focus and fizzle passives. It isn't intuitive NOR is there any indication on how to level it quicker. I've had earth strength passives go up when not using earth magic (might be by design... but shouldn't be). Attunement definitely needs a bump. I'm at work so I can't give exact numbers, but I think my highest attunement at lvl 40 is only 13 or 14. If this is by design then that means I'll need to hit around adv lvl 300 to GM any attunements. It seems passives suck WAY too much xp (see ALL the threads about locking skills) but I don't have hard numbers on anything beyond just my gut feeling so I don't want to speak on that without actual data to back it up.

As for more general feel of them all: Passives kill ability to level up and don't appear to have much if any pay off in the low-mid range.

Will hold off on rage quiting (well, I wouldn't rage quit anyways because that requires too much passion) but still 100% against the decay. It just isn't fun. Looking forward to how, if at all, it feels or applies differently next release. But currently, it is going to have to be a major tweak to have any hope of overcoming the current hideous feeling of dread to login and play it gives me as a casual player.

Nuff said.

Good luck. This is the single biggest repeat question I've had while hanging out in IRC every day. Looking forward to the tweaks and sending all the positive vibes your way I can. Thanks for trying to improve the lag and stutters and frame rates.

My plan for next wipe is to again play a purist non-melee caster and gatherer in hopes that it is finally a playable option and doesn't require melee auto-attack or turning off all skills to level successfully (current design feels like melee and killing skills being used is required to level). I'm also looking to actually time numbers for each tier tool at each type of node in each tier zone so you can see how miserable harvesting is for those without prosperity tools (hard data more important than current despised feeling of it). Not speaking for drop rates or crit chances because those are a completely different topic than what I want to focus on for next wipe cycle.

Please don't take my comments with any sense of negativity, I'm enjoying the awesome you have all managed to do so far, even if it currently makes my play style frustrating and miserable at times. The game is a work in progress and I respect that not all releases will cater to my play style or focus on areas I think need improvement. Getting a great game for the long term is what keeps me logging in and looking towards the future.

 

I just cant say enough that the decay over time mechanic need to go.

Its like the craziest game design ive ever heard of.

 

@Chris the main trouble we have atm is that SotA PvP is for the Biggests PvE Farmers. No skill, No brain, be the best monsters Killer Farmer and you will be aweaome PvP player.

Super Farmer Player with two hands full thumbs can be the PvP Champion with is ADV LvL. Its lame and poor. We want more for game like SotA.

It is certain that the people here are going to say it like that, the others (some PvP players) have left.

It is certain the Super PvE Farmers here are going to say ~~ WE LOVE YOUR SUPER PVE FARMING SYSTEM FOR PVP ...YEAHHHHHH ~~

People will come back for the launch, lets go @Chris !!!

 

We already proved that to not be the case since mimner, bambino and myself all stayed level 50 and murdered everybody repeatedly (all the way up to level 80 opponents) in 3 separate releases. We also tested it in the combat scrum at normal speed, super speed and slow motion lol with Chris setting some peoples level at 100 and dropping other peoples level.

 

I haven't met a single MMORPG player that does not min/max to some degree. It is part of the human wetware to do this and it is part of the progression reward systems that has made the genre so popular, ever since the invention of Sword + 1 onwards.
It is also part and parcel for any player vs player activity.
So calling people that min max morons and unintelligent in a forum aimed at such an audience for such a game, when trying to promote PvP, that it just seem... well... that one could better min max ones posts.

 

This so much. I've still not hit level 10 with this despite aiming for it across two releases. In contrast the pet resurrect that was added in R25 I had at level 10 within a week of release.

 

Not to hijack your thread Themo, but. The easiest way to level up purify or burst is with a pet. Goto the bridge, get yourself and pet afflicted.. move to a safe spot. Control your pet to stay. Walk away, purify ( or burst ) yourself. walk back to pet to get reafflicted. I leveled up my burst in about 2 hours, only due to the cool down. Msg me in game if you need help with this.

 

Looking Awesome @Chris !!!

 

I think at low level a archer type character have hard time keeping up the arrow supply and at the same time have enough gold to buy all the new skills.
I think harvesting at the moment isnt quit fun as it could be.
It takes most of the times way to long to collect stuff. Waiting that a porgress bar gets finished isnt quit entertaining, and on top of that is the chance that it can fail.
This is special at the beginning not really fun at all. It gets batter but iam looking forward to the next 3-4 releases
I think i will have more fun with combat when all the animations and improvement are in place

 

I don't really want to waste two hours of gaming time doing that sort of thing, and I thought it was one of the main points of a use-based system that we shouldn't have to? I also generally found that 'Stay' didn't work and purify burst only removed zombie plague about a third of the time.

 

I think that's a bad goal. Why is "playing time" the determining factor?

Chris, when the game launches, I'll do what I need to do to be level whatever. It will probably take me a lot longer than I want it to, but I'll get there. It won't be any fun for me. It's not what I want to spend my time doing. It's not going to give me any feel of accomplishment. But I'll get there one way or another. If the curve is flat enough and I can complete in PVP, great I guess.

But again, why is "playing time" the determining factor? My goal as a player that likes PVP is to PVP. I don't want to grind out levels to achieve my goal. It's not fun for me.

I agree with you here, having a wipe every three months is highlighting the difference in playing style. Where some people say "this is great I get to level all over again!" Other people like me are just not doing it at all. I already did it once and it wasn't fun the first time. What I think is important to understand here is that what we're asking new players to do at launch is stay with us for a number of months before the game gets fun. And by fun I don't mean the same thing that achievers mean. Level progression is fine, mindlessly killing things over and over is not.

This gets us right back to the real question we should be asking. Why is "playing time" the determining factor? I want to PVP now. I want to PVP yesterday. I think Abydos said it very well. Of course super powergamer guy is going to say "this is great, I love this system!" because he gets unbelievably powerful doing what he thinks is fun. Turn that on its head, Chris. Tell super power gamer guy that he can't advance and has to use only player skill in pvp for 100 hours before he can "have fun" killing monsters. How much do you think he'd like that?

That's where we need to focus on balancing. And first, we need our goal to be something other than "playing time" to determine who's good at pvp.

Yes, more about skill. For example, if I had the ability to block someone's 126 level Searing Ray with a spell I could get day one. Well now this game becomes a lot more about ACTUAL skill and a lot less about how much time you killed mobs.

Isn't this still time based though? If I can't pvp now, how do I get pvp experience?

It seems to me that I'm still forced to grind away at lower lever until I can find people that I can kill and farm for PVP experience. Which would lure higher level players to just farm me and anyone below them.

 

I'm not sure I follow. My definition of use-based it skill advancements by using that skill, which is what you are doing. You are using the skill to raise the level. In my example that was how I did it.. feel free to stand there and beat on the zombies and cure yourself every cool down if it fails, you redo it. Either way you are still using the skill to increase it. Just tossed out my method of how I raised it in 2 hours for those unable to do so..

 

As usual i've been playing a ranger in light armor with air skills for the combos, and been leveling mostly solo. I did all the starting quest to get plenty of xp in the pool, and then as i finished all the quests i had knowledge of i spent the rest of my time (which sadly wasn't a lot) grinding. After that my xp pool kept going down (ranged doesn't have any AOE skill) and i wasn't unable to keep up with the amount spent... my pool went down and i had to lock almost all skills to keep it stable with the mobs i was fighting against.

The point i'm trying to make is that innates progression feel too dependant from the XP pool, and it seems to me that there are only two ways to have a reliable XP pool; hunting in party (people spending xp so you gain xp) or skills that do AOE (less spend per gains). Having neither of those (one by choice, the other by character output) made me

So in short Innates progressed slow for me; i got up to 80 in Ranged combat before quitting (because RL duty mind you! ) and i don't think there's anything else worth mentioning. Regardless of how they progress i don't like them. They're not fun because they're mandatory (no choices), and not having more requirements to be raised than "having 10 in the parent skill" they're too convenient. I don't understand why we need them, and love if flat bonuses (stuff like increased damage, increased critical, increased defense, increased whatever) were granted in some other way and just get rid of almost every innate. There are precedents for that after all.

After all... What purpose do they serve? What's the fun/strategy/planification do they add?

 

Yes, that's another important way to look at it. It's really just a mandatory leveling system that has a use based skin.

Not trying to be a jerk about it, just trying to show the concept realistically. You want to be a good archer, you level up and max out those skills. Not a lot going on beyond that.

 

Nice! That's one of the possible answers, but i'd say that, as an archer, i gain precision and damage and range as i pewpew arrows at my enemies. If innates are really a reflection of how good archer am i, and i become a good archer by using the active skills... why not grant innate benefits automatically, and tie its total value as a factor of the sum of the level of all the skills on each skill tree? (just for going with something simple)

I personally don't see any sense in "hey i'm going to improve my aimed shot but i don't feel like stretching the bow till the end so i won't improve damage".

 

I see your point. There are innates that would inherently level together on the margins. That makes logical sense. Does it make game sense though? Does it make balance sense? I don't know. I wonder if there are any people not raising damage and only raising range? I feel like this is a bigger issue. Because we know there's no cap, I assume that everyone plans to eventually have both (all). Which begs the question, aren't we all just X time away from being the same? I don't like that.

 

@Themo Lock i'm curious as to how/why you consider skill decay to be a deterrant against roleplay.

from my perspective, if it has gone so far as to effected even that system, then there is a glaring issue inherent in skill decay itself.

 

Baron Drocis, would you prefer the skill training the way EVE Online does over the traditional RPG grinding?

I don't know if there is any other better way to make a character progress aside grinding or doing quests (excluding the pay-to-win scheme).