Thoughts on deck combat

I'm just not feeling this whole deck system as it stands.

Problems:
Its a constant fight with the RNG.
You end up overloading your decks with the abilities you want in order to game the RNG.
You cannot key bind abilities since they are always moving around in the bar.
You are required to watch the bar more than the action.

IMO, a much better system would be...

You have 5 buttons in your button bar. (this number is fixed)
You make "bar presets" with whatever 5 abilities you want in the bar. (Similar to "decks" but with just 5 static cards)
You can switch bars out of combat only.
Remove cool downs and replace with a new resource called "stamina".
Abilities spend stamina. Stamina regenerates over time or via consumables.

Benefits:
- Not dependent on RNG for what skills you have available at any given time. Its your choice based on what bar you have up.
- Bars are static (things don't move around) so you can key bind appropriately.
- You don't have to keep looking at the bar.
- No watching buttons for cool downs. The only thing you have to watch is your stamina bar. When its gone you can't perform abilities and must wait for it to recharge or perform some other action to recover it.

This restricts abilities and makes you craft your bars based on what you will be doing.
You are in control of what abilities are available and when.
Combat is now a game of stamina management, not fighting against the RNG to decide what abilities you have access to.
Eliminates gaming the RNG by overloading decks which is a giant red flag that your system is flawed.
Now you can remain focused on the action and use your key binds efficiently.

 

The only problem with your suggestion is that they have stated early on that they want to get away from key binding which is pretty much used in every "traditional" MMO. Limited skills that you are suggesting sounds similar to the original Guild Wars format. It worked well in that game because PvP was always team based so limiting a persons skills is functional because you build your skill sets based on your team composition verses an individual player build.It resulted in mindless button mashing.

 

I totally agree with the original poster here. I had just started a similar thread in another forum:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-you-the-player-can-start-a-revolution.13207/

If key binding is an issue then you can get away from key binding by just mixing up the order in which the skills display on the combat hot bar. Skills/powers could get shuffled once when you enter combat mode. But they shouldn't constantly get shuffled and randomized. Otherwise this just becomes like playing Tetris!

 

The deck system also has limited skills as you can only have a limited number of cards per deck so I don't really see the difference in what I propose.
You also have key binds in the deck system but the only difference is that they effectively change all the time because the cards move around in your bar.

My proposed model of combat is...
- Put your abilities where you want them in the bar (they stay there).
- Assign key binds to the slots.
- In combat you can focus on the action and hit your keys knowing what skill is there.

The deck system...
- Build your decks, overloading the skills you want to see more often (to counter the effects of the RNG).
- Slots are still key bound (however you don't know what skill will go with what slot).
- In combat you have to constantly watch the bar to see what skills are in the bar and where.
- Then you hit the appropriate key bind.

A player's actions should not be under control of the RNG.
Combat should be based on the player's choices, selecting the skills that are appropriate at the appropriate times.
The "effects" of the selected skills can and should be under control of the RNG as those are more under control of other forces that the game controls.

I predict the following common argument in groups..
Someone dies... "Hey why didn't I get any heals?"
Healer: "Because I didn't get any heal cards!"
Repeat until healer is frustrated and ready to quit.

The bottom line is that the players will end up feeling like puppets at the whim of some invisible malevolent puppet master rather than virtual avatars in control of their own actions. You'll be screaming at the computer to get the cards you want when you want them.

When a player loses due to their own actions it is far more acceptable than losing due to something you have no control over.

 

It's not gaming the system when you put more then one skill in the deck, that is the way it is designed on purpose in order to ensure that that skill comes up more often. That's really an integral part of a deck based skill system. I am at a loss as what red flag you see with that...it is operating as planned.

Question, have you ever played a deck building game before? Not magic, but something like dominion or thunderstone? (board games) it's using that mentality of deck layout.

This will become even more important when we start seeing combo's and such by what is being drawn. Your system isn't any different then the one offered in guild wars 2.

If a healer never gets any healing cards he must not have set his deck up properly at all?

 

rune_74, when playing a deck building board game there is plenty of time to deal with different card sets and adjust tactics to what you have on hand. Doing this in fast paced real time combat is a totally different thing. It just adds another distraction and turns this into a clicking and reaction contest. If I want to play an action game I can do that better with a shooter.

It is also quite odd when you are on a high latency connection in Asia, such as myself. Timers and such are quite important in MMORPG pvp to create a more level playing field for people with different Internet speeds and latencies. You take this away and make it click-twitch-action you badly disadvantage everyone outside the USA.

 

what I dont like is how once u took a few hits its impossible to come back in the fight

 

Can someone please tell me what the heck RNG stands for? This thread is nonsense if you don't know the term. Thanks.

 

I think it means Random Number Generator.

 

RNG is Random Number Generator.

The player could have his deck setup perfectly and still not get a healing card.
The chance that you get a healing card when you actually need one is even more remote.
Its a glorified slot machine.
Explain to me how that is better than giving the player full control.

 

You can lock a heal card and a position card like roots. They Will be always there for you to use them.

IMO it is better because it is easier to track available cards with few slots. This way the focus is to choose "what" and "when" and not your personal skill on keyboard tipping.

 

If you weight your deck properly I would be highly surprised if no healing card came up. You did ignore that detail.

 

The difference is if you lock all your card that gives you 9 slots which no chance of doing more powerful combos and for me I have 20 cards to starts and I believe you get more cards in a deck as you level up, plus I will be able to do combos. You will only have 9 locked cards per deck. To me that is a huge difference to game play.

 

If I was building a healing deck using the 20 card minimum with 9 slots...I would probably pick 2/3 of my cards as healing/cures skills/spells and a third combat. We also have not taken into account the power of healing combos as well as other healing that will be put in game such as potions and maybe even bandages. So I assume we will have many ways to be effective at healing.

I also wonder how much people spent in focus because after some tinkering with focus I was able to come up with speeds that allowed my cards to stay for more then enough time to decide what skills/spells I wanted to use with out feeling rushed..In fact I could use 3 abilities before my cards seem to change. When I first started the cards were moving very fast, but I made the changes and hit the right pace for me.

 

I'm going to keep tinkering with it and hopefully can come up with something that doesn't feel so awkward.
The hybrid approach may be a solution. Some locked critical skills + the rest random.
Perhaps tinkering with focus is the answer.
In any event none of that addresses the distraction of constantly glancing at the bar during combat which I find very disruptive.

The jury is still out for me but I'm willing to keep playing with it.

 

I completely respect your opinion and I am also pleased to see you willing to give it a try. This system definitely is a work in progress and might end up being something different in the end. I persoanlly don't want to play another game that all I have to do is set my macros and key bindings and spam them over and over again.

My Ranger in RIFT had 2 macro buttons that controlled all my abilities...... With those 2 buttons I was able to link all the skills needed to drop anything in PvP and PvE.

 

I had 9 slots for the glyphs, but I found that I had to keep looking down at my keyboard to see where 7 or 9, etc, was. For others it might work great, but my short fingers don't allow for such dexterity!
I decided to bring it down to 5 slots (5 fingers!) and rather change the rate at which the glyphs rotate. I don't mind if they don't stay for very long, having my 5 fingers "bound" to 1-5, it's a fraction of a second to use a glyph. A quick right click will discard it to fascilitate shuffling through the deck faster.
Playing this way does limit me a bit, but taking my play style into consideration, the pros outweighs the cons.

Also love the idea of locking a healing spell. Because if you need it, you need it NOW, no matter the focus cost.

 

So, something like Myrcello's idea, except translated over to the draw system might be worthwhile ? https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...dallas-2-0-easy-rider-combat-interface.13029/

 

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I don't understand the comments about having to look at your bar constantly. I know what is in my deck. I want to use all of what I put there. A quick glance perhaps to not recast my fire elemental, which I am just playing with in the moment and he may not stay anyway since I am a warrior player. I have only fire arrow locked since I need a pull spell. So it may be different for a caster, but I haven't had that problem so far. But of course all of this is great feedback and such an important conversation. I love it. ****cheers****