Tram Killed UO is Tram back?

Getting Rich is great and all, but they should be doing it by making great games, not by raking as many people over the coals as they can at the same time. AKA these casual / for "everyone" games.

Not every game has to be for every person, EA needs to understand this, there is a very hungry and rabid Niche game market that is ready to throw some serious money at this first developer that finally decides to scratch that itch.

And I have hope that some developers will finally start breaking off from this disappointing trend and start making specific games for specific audiences again, which is good, it needs to happen again.

I like what I'm seeing from Camelot Unchained http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

And I like what I'm hearing from Trials of Ascension http://trialsofascension.com/

Anyone that loved and missed Old School Pre-Trammel UO should totally be keeping a close eye on Trials of Ascension, it should be the closest thing to that old school UO feel you will see in a long time I'm sure.

 

Publishers and Developers need to stop trying to make as much money as possible by trying to do EVERYTHING at once and trying to make every game they make appeal to EVERYONE.

Once they stop doing ^^ That ^^ then we can get back to developers making MMOs that catered to a specific market segment and did it well, and fewer trying to "cater to everyone" and doing a half-assed job of it.

Then maybe we can get some hard and challenging games again, more old school feeling games, games with a vision, that take risks, innovate, and try to be different, unique, and special.

Rather than this same old same old that keeps happening in the industry, where developers and publishers keep churning out the same **** over and over again with a different skin thrown on it, all these clones, all these casual games, all these stupidly easy, hand holding experiences that really benefit no one and line these peoples' pockets with cash.

 

I'm not knocking SoTA at all, I'm talking more in general than anything else. So don't take me the wrong way in that respect. I can't wait to play SoTA, but I did have high hopes that this game would be the second coming of UO, and in that regard I'm pretty disappointed.

And sorry If I offended you Elyrin, I was really enjoying your story up till the first sentence of that third paragraph, then I was like well if Elyrin has been playing freeshards since EA bought out OSI then I guess Elyrin has been playing freeshards since before UO even released.... lol

Which I guess could be possible in a alternate universe / dimension , so that is pretty impressive.

 

@Owain - I just registered on KGB. Would be interested in getting some gaming in with like minded players. Just waiting for admin approval.

 

@poisonman
Sorry, I guess I am not an expert on who owned what and when. That was actually the one thing I was concerned about when posting in these forums and why I had not up to this point. I will not let it scare me away though...

The point of my post was not that EA bought OSI, or whether it was before or after UO. Sorry that I broke your immersion in my story and for unintentionally spreading falsities. I am not a game company expert so I guess I was just making assumptions based on my own personal feelings as time has progressed, not to mention it was so long ago that I cannot even remember the actual year I left UO (which is why I thought "leave it vague").

My previous post is entirely my experience and if I could edit it and pull out the sentence about EA/OSI, I would so that it more accurately reflects the facts.

Regards,

Lord Elryin Silvertree

 

@poisonman:

Making a MMO for a niche audience means drastically reducing the potential revenue, which in turn means a much lower development budget. For example, if Chris' assessment that about half the SotA player base is made of PvE-only players is close to reality, it means that if SotA planned to be online-only with enforced PvP it would likely have, at most, half it's development budget. Trying to find a way to allow more kinds of players to enjoy the game might be better for the game.

In fact I don't think the market has been completely neglected; there is a fair number of smaller MMOs out there catering to niche markets. Apart from EVE, though, none of them seem to have ever managed to grow enough it's player base, and thus it's revenue, to get it's polish level to where it can be favorably compared with the "big" MMOs.

As for AAA-budget games made for niche markets, the chance of that happening is quite slim. Anything with an AAA budget typically requires reaching out for as many potential customers as possible in order to recoup it's investment. If you want to play anything with the polish level of an AAA game you must accept the fact it will try to attract everyone that might potentially be interested in that genre, plus a number of players that aren't.

 

Illesac's arguments are based upon him pretending to "know" what was in the minds of the non Pk role players on UO.

It's quite obvious he presents only the PK side. He likes to pretend that the people his character murdered all enjoyed the "challenge", when in fact, the opposite is true.

I was there playing nightly for six years. I heard hundreds, thousands of players who were real, hardcore roleplayer's like myself whose enjoyment of the game was actually ruined by rude, immature PKs who simply couldn't or wouldn't comprehend that killing another person's character without their consent repeatedly for no reason was akin to bullying. Many good gamers quit UO due to these rude kids, many of whom, if their parents had seen how they acted, would have been kicked off the computer until they grew up.

People quit UO because of this pointless crap...and that is all it is when you have thoughtless kids who want to hurt other people's feelings, cause them grief, make them miserable in what is supposed to be an rpg.

There is nothing whatsoever related to role playing in what they did, it's a case of enjoying causing actual pain to other people.

People like Illesac are functioning outside of reality, when then pretend that their "fun" went both ways, or was in any way a "positive" experience for people interested in telling their stories and playing a part in a fantasy world.

Now, everyone here, except perhaps for the PKs living in their own sick fantasy world, can understand the logic of what I am stating.

Anyone who played as a PK can't speak for how the other side felt. pretending they can is typical of the illogical, selfish way they acted in the first place. There is a reason they wouldn't play if they couldn't run around killing folks. That is all they did.

UO changed when the majority of the player base demanded something be done about the murderers who were utterly out of control, and who were so desperately antisocial that they had delusions that the people they were killing were getting some sort of benefit out of it.

The hardcore Rpers weren't benefiting, and were suffering and THAT is the truth.

There are lots of players who swung both ways, many were sometimes aggressively killers, and at other times roleplayer's.

Some skilled players played in game murderers who were good roleplayer's....and some of these never "murdered"anyone unless there was private consent for a fight with both parties,,,which is, of course, the mature, thinking way to go about it.

I sound harsh when talking about the PKs from UO of old...but these guys have it coming. They never considered anyone except themselves, and were the most selfish and out of control group of players I've encountered in any game.

Only the PKs themselves have the rosy memories on that experience. SotA stands to lose it's RPG soul for the sake of a few bucks, if controls aren't in place to keep them acting like human beings.

And that is what this amounts to...acting like there are human beings behind the mouse and keyboard.

 

"Only the PKs themselves have the rosy memories on that experience. SotA stands to lose it?s RPG soul for the sake of a few bucks, if controls aren?t in place to keep them acting like human beings."

@Otha Livinded, As an Anti-PK, I beg to differ, but I understand your position. I think the game design for SotA will make the issues you raise irrelevant for SotA.

 

@Otha "I was there playing nightly for six years. I heard hundreds, thousands of players who were real, hardcore roleplayer?s like myself whose enjoyment of the game was actually ruined by rude, immature PKs who simply couldn?t or wouldn?t comprehend that killing another person?s character without their consent repeatedly for no reason was akin to bullying. Many good gamers quit UO due to these rude kids, many of whom, if their parents had seen how they acted, would have been kicked off the computer until they grew up."

Perhaps we have different definitions of "good gamers". I was 11 when I started playing UO. It took me all of like two weeks to learn if I'm getting PK'd at the mines every 5 minutes either a) stop running back to the mines in the buff with a pickaxe, get a sword and a friend or two... or b) stop going back to the mines and enjoy one of the other 849057230975209957823057 facets of the game.

When did it become a programmer's job to write code to replace common sense?

EDIT: Btw I did RP then. I was in CoV as a Paladin. We frequently hunted PKs. Just another RPing option instead of running out of town over and over by myself and wondering why I die.

 

@Otha - I only went red twice and it was only for killing people who were annoying. I never hunted people but frequently joined PK hunts when people would show up at the bank naked and needed help. As you would so eloquently say...how do you know what's in my mind? You have no substantial reason for playing in a non-PvP world other than your personal whining. It doesn't add anything to the gameplay value like the fear and excitement of random PvP. There is plenty of the world that will be safe, we can have our playgrounds too.

edit: when I read your post again it infuriates me so much with all of your non-facts. Are you Rush Limbaugh?

 

This thread is still alive? Why? Lawl, it is fun though. I was encouraged with a bit more PvP talk coming out of that last Dev chat. Looks like meat is back on the menu boys!

?Only the PKs themselves have the rosy memories on that experience. SotA stands to lose it?s RPG soul for the sake of a few bucks, if controls aren?t in place to keep them acting like human beings.?

Otha, you've pretty much got it right. I don't exactly see anything wrong with that though, such good memories for me there.

Lawl @ Owain, still going on about the Anti-PK guilds, we'll see how well you do when all the carebears shut off their PvP flags and don't need to "hire" you. Sure you can pimp yourself out for something though. Forum space filler for example.

 

InsaneMembrane, PvE players generally don't hire Anti-PKs, and it typically is unnecessary. Our work is its own reward.

 

@InsaneMembrane:

I don't remember hearing anything from RG about flags. Many of the trammies never even experienced the days pre-Trammel so they cannot comment on the types of experiences they may or may not have had then. I mean is that difficult to prepare yourself before you go into an area that is known to be rife with PK's?

 

If PKs were allowed to do our stuff freely, then PvE players would possibly hire Anti-PKs or at least join a PvP guild for safety in numbers.

Flags or not, I have no idea either as its all pure speculation at this point how anything in-game will be accomplished, just that they have said people will be able to play online without fear of being PKed if they don't want to.

 

Owain is right about this - The design of the game will control pvp and keep it limited to those that want it. This has been stated time and time again, despite the loud cries of a few that want full, non-consensual pvp.

@rshultzy80 - It became a programmer's job to write code to replace common sense when the game is bleeding players, because of a small group of people that are ruining the game for everyone else. Go listen or read some of the interviews of the UO staff about the early days. It was never meant to be the way it was. The game system was programmed to be very open, with the assumption that people would play it a certain way.

The game was full of unintended consequences that made being a murderer rewarding while being a law-abiding citizen was punishing - this was not the intent of the game. Thus, things had to change - drastically. In an MMO, it is entirely up to the programmers to make the world live-able. The players are there to play, not be a police force.

@Otha - while your facts may not be perfect, your opinion is shared by many. I and many of my friends left UO in the early days, because of the very problem you describe. We didn't last an entire month. I was the only one that ever went back(after Trammel). I left the game when AOs came along, as I didn't like the move to gear-based stuff. The rest of my friends had been burned and weren't going back. I think there were many people like this. I also think RG knows this, and his vision to deal with the situation is perfect.

I think the last dev hangout says it all - there will be no non-consensual pvp. One of the ways people will be grouped in open online is by pvp preference. Those that want pvp will be together. Those that don't want pvp will be grouped together. Some areas/quests will be open pvp, but you will be warned.

The only people left in the cold by this are the people that enjoy griefing. Frankly, we don't need them in the game, anyway.

 

@Dranack - Hopefully by leaving town you are consenting to PvP. This game shouldn't be game for those who cry the loudest. You have SPO mode to experience a safe world.

 

@Illesac Dude, have you ever listened to any of the devs? You will not even SEE players that are not flagged for pvp. And the people who cry the loudest are 5 or 6 pvp players here on the forum who post the same demands over and over again even tho they have been denied PLENTY of times.

 

@Illesac "This game shouldn?t be game for those who cry the loudest." - Then this game shouldn't be for Open-PvP-PK-full loot-supporters, too

 

@Lanatir @Lord_Darkmon - the game should be made as LB sees fit. See my other posts about the timing of him leaving EA and Trammel being released.

@Lanatir

<cite>Dude, have you ever listened to any of the devs? You will not even SEE players that are not flagged for pvp.</cite>

Dude, have you ever listened to any of the devs? You will have areas that are open PvP. I'm just asking that a majority of the world be so.

 

They never SAID that there will be areas that are open pvp. not a single time. a player that is NOT flagged for pvp will be able to go to every corner of the world and he will not ONCE even SEE a pvp player.