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Upcoming Economic Balance Changes

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Sep 9, 2016.

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  1. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

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    I was going to give a +1 too, but alas he called someone a Dork.
     
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  2. Time Lord

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    @SabeSr always has good comments. He's got some salt still left behind his ears ;) and many great things come from ruff conversations, "which he's had many times before", which is why I always enjoy his threads :D, but I don't always agree with him, though many times "I do".

    Food for thought...
    I've always been in favor of screw top bottle caps with a leather necks being in our game... I've also always felt that "salty squid" should become a great food source here at some point :p There's just so many ways to shoot holes in our economy now because it is still so incomplete in missing so much.

    Public Robbery...:cool:
    But another thing I'm a believer in is robbery! "Personally I think that once a player get's to the point they have a tremendous amount of gold, then that player should be open in some way to robbery" :cool:
    Millionaires should carry a responsibility in supporting the poorer folks through the linings of their pockets becoming worn and developing holes where a thief could get into their extremely deep pockets. This is the only thing I see as useful to the entire game having such rich individuals. I'd say that such knowledge should be made available through the public vendors they buy or sell anything from or to... as well as any banker they visit o_O... gossip travels...
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
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  3. mdsota152

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    oooh, I know, bank heists! ;) Your accounts are only insured on the first 100,000 gp at any one bank. (just kidding of course...)
     
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  4. racerx

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    This I dont agree with. I myself am poor but i dont plan on staying that way forever. They earned it. You cant punish being successful otherwise why try to be? lets just all be poor. If everybody is "the same" whats the point in playing the game if the end result is being poor or poor but equal to the next poor guy? i hope im making sense. it sounded better in my head :p Derp!
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  5. Time Lord

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    ~Success and an End Game~
    Successful to me "within our game", is something I've been debating. >>>--->What is success when success gains nothing but a useless number?<---<<< This is the core of my conscience within all this, because such wealth buys "nothing" inside our game. It's just a number of something that has no purpose. Without "time" effecting our characters, then time stands still no matter what the clock on the wall may say. This also points to a very unnatural thing, where we are now only a hand full of weeks into our game and we already have Gozillionaires... "what's that same person going to have in a year of time or many years and then what will they ever do with it?" Then Times that by X100,000 players all with unstoppable wealth, no motive to continue playing and then we've got a broken game play because we're all sitting bored to death at the same card table with an endless supply of money.

    We all have a genus friend here who had to shoot himself up in a rocket to find anymore challenges. The Buddha himself unlike the Dahlia Lama couldn't stand staying here another minute never to return because he had conquered everything he could find here on earth. So similar to our game, "there must be a challenge and there must be a purpose we can find for motive to achieve money beyond covering our expenses".

    I myself could have made the most in our game because I can play 24/7... ok, ok, with sleep and eating maybe 14/7 :p... But I decided that I would chat more on the forums, organize some things and hinder my in game Avatar by a set of restrictive RP mindset rules for him to follow. Otherwise I would have maybe 10-20+ GMed skills, been done with our game and playing something else.

    That's what I struggle with when it comes to not having any motive for such a number to be sitting in any bank account. In real life I could use it but in gaming life it means nothing but to be there.
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  6. Jonathon.Doran

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    I've been meaning to ask this for a while... The Oracle never asks me any questions. I cannot answer honestly, as I cannot answer anything. What might I be doing wrong? I believe I have followed all of the conversation links.
     
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  7. Jaanelle DeJure

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    One of the great things about this game is that it supports many playstyles, albeit none of them ideally.

    As I previously advocated, one of the best ways to get the "rich" to spend money is to figure out what kinds of goods and services they want. The other involves counterbalancing of exploit-y mechanics.

    But at the end of the day, if people are hellbent on amassing a dragon's hoard, I'm sure they will rather quickly become bored and find that they've ruined the game for themselves.

    I learned my lesson many years ago hacking my player file on Bard's Tale. Games are not fun if there is no struggle or challenge. But at the end of the day, we all need to learn that lesson for ourselves.

    There's all sorts of solutions and interesting debates here in this thread and elsewhere, however I find it interesting that hardly anybody questions the MENTALITY of the person whose sole purpose in game (or in life) is to amass wealth and nice shiny objects.

    The threat to the game is that too much bandwidth gets devoted trying to endlessly counterbalance the efforts of a small fraction of players, rather than focusing o. improvements that would make the game more fun for EVERYBoDY.

    Maybe it would be a better tactic to just facilitate the process for those seeking to become gazillionaires... the sooner those types get rich, the so ner they will get bored and leave the game for (ironically) a bigger challenge.

    Heck, you could even implement a quest line that TELLS people how to get "rich" quick.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
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  8. Kambrius

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    My question is this: Are resource nodes linked across all selective multiplayer modes, i.e., if a node is harvested in one mode, is it harvested across the other modes? If it is not, that's your economy problem right there.
     
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  9. Tibs

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    I believe resource nodes are linked across instances. What does not appear so linked are mobs... and their loot.
     
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  10. Jaanelle DeJure

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    For a game, I might suggest that "success" is directly proportional to the amount of fun had. Of course, different people find different things entertaining. For me, I've really been enjoying all the creative people I meet, and especially those whose focus is more on doing things that make the game more enjoyable to all.

    Maybe it's just a result of getting older, but I'e gotten to the "end" of enough RPG games to know that the feeling of "finishing" is a rather empty one.

    As for exploiting the game and running around yelling "nannynannybooboo I beat you" well... that's nice for the kiddos I guess...:rolleyes:
     
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  11. Croniac

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    I didn't read the whole thread, so if I retouch some previous thoughts, please cut me some slack..

    Opening more money faucets in a game is NEVER the solution to a broken economy, so the $500 for swinging by the oracle is kinda phoned-in.

    You have a problem of broke newbies, and you have a problem of over stuffed vendors, why is the solution not obvious? Why not make player crafted equipment (even low level stuff) superior to NPC vendor stuff?

    Lets say I make arrows and I'm a newb... My hand made arrows should be superior to the ones I can buy on the NPC's in town, and as I get better, so do my arrows. And the bonuses should be obvious via the name of the arrows in the game.

    However, today, as a newbie carpenter, I sell 'Arrows' and they can not be distinguished from the ones the vendor in town sells, so right from the start the players have to compete with the game just to make headway. Problem is, arrows on the town NPC sell for about 0.2 gold each... But, harvesting wood, and metals and feathers is more work than the artificial NPC 0.2 per unit price. Since there is no obvious reason for a player to buy my arrows for more, they simply don't... So I have to compete with the game, rather than the guy across the street who makes arrows also.

    Its a stupid mechanic that dooms new crafters... Fix that... Don't just hand out money.

    @DarkStarr by forgetting things like this, I fear you're forgetting what makes player economies work. Either reduce the perceived cost of creating, or make the NPC prices add up to something that matches the effort of crafting. EVE Online has made it so that a truely player crafted universe works, and they did it by making sure that NPC's don't directly compete with player crafted items.
     
  12. Tibs

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    Untrue, like most gross overgeneralizations.
     
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  13. Croniac

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    Post an example of a time a new faucet improved a game without other economic adjustments.

    Also, if you agree with everything else I said, which you must have or there would have been other snarky cracks, why would you argue with a simple phrase and not the content?
     
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  14. Croniac

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    One of the best facets of original UO was thieving. It's a shame that whiners today are so averse to it. Thieves didn't hurt the economy at all, in fact lots of folks made a hobby of killing thieves. They benefited in skill, and in reputation.

    This game seriously lacks a 'threat', you can die and keep all your stuff, no player can ever impact your game play in any meaningful way. In UO, the effect of others (good or bad) was a key piece of game play, and I'm sad they are gone. I was never any infamous red murderer in UO, but I did have a very successful thief that was a joy to play, and provided a lot of play time to those that would try (and occasionally succeed) at killing her.

    Her biggest heist, probably the two story house deed swiped in Vesper of an unsuspecting fool... Or 20,000 reagents taken from a guy macroing magery also in Vesper.. .Macro'ers always deserve the pain.
     
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  15. Tibs

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    If you wish an economy to flow, a functional economy, money must be spent rather than stagnate among the few at the top. The wealth must go to those who spend. The flow of money IS the economy. The wealthy will be fine. The many must have a source of income.

    The rest of that particular post makes sense, but it was wholly unnecessary to introduce it with a flawed economic assertion, a universal assertion at that, in a mortal, finite world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
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  16. Time Lord

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    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ved-in-new-britannia.59144/page-3#post-661342
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
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  17. majoria70

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    Croniac, welcome to the game. This is good feedback and of course this is one of those things that will see improvements and is not operating as intended of course since the game is still in development. So no systems are completed at this moment, they all need tons of work and are not working like a finished product will. That's why we are here to provide that feedback to them. and Eve Online is a finished game. Sorry not trying to be snarky but just sayin. ;) *cheers*
     
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  18. Tibs

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    In the matter of better crafted arrows, it would probably add quite a bit to the game to make different arrow types for different applications. Bodkin arrows for improved penetration (versus plate and chain), flight for range (better fletching), warhead (versus leather and cloth). Hardwood shafts for greater strength/durability (increased recovery rate). I imagine such would be specialties primarily used for more challenging situations like PvP. Enchanted arrows for incorporeal foes. These would likely require significant programming challenges for the developer unless the developer has already provided for the feature in existing code.

    However, it will not help the economy to only introduce greater expense for the superior crafted products: most players are already spending everything they get on crafting fuels and purchased parts. It will not help the non-crafting players by making better arrows more expensive: they will still buy the inexpensive blunts sold by NPC merchants. I think the developers are taking the right course by adding faucets that will be used by those players whose gamestyle keeps them spending in the lower and mid-echelons of wealth. If the money is accumulating, lying fallow in the pockets of the top rank in wealth, then clearly some significant money sinks must be designed at that top rank.

    It might be best to brainstorm what kinds of sinks for the wealthy would most benefit the game, rather than argue that the spenders don't need an increase in income. Banditry and crime offer attractive possibilities if they can be done in an interesting enough way to offset the outrage it would cause among the economically successful. I think it is predictable that if the Oracle demands a wealth tax it will not be well received.
     
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  19. Tibs

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    Seems to me that one possible money sink for the wealthy could come with barbaric invasions of NPC mobs, challenging invasions that require players to band together or have our towns (NPC, PRT and POT) beseiged and sacked.

    Invasions might emerge from the vast underground, or the shardfalls, or the sea. Invasions might be triggered by players, or player factions, providing causes for organized and purposeful PvP. Migration and presence of an invasion might be visible on the overworld.

    Player groups/raid organizations might have 'army'-like avatars in the overworld. Meeting an invasion, such an army might spawn on an instanced battle field with the invasion opposing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
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  20. Croniac

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    Tibs, I seriously don't mean any offense here, but your idea that sink's and faucets have to be coded is completely contrary to the idea of a player driven economy.

    The idea here is to remove the concept of the game providing the economy and you playing within it, and instead having an economy that stands naturally within the game between the players. The only way that happens is to get the NPC vendors out of the player economy.

    You are correct that some folks have no need for high end arrows and will always buy cheap in town from NPC's... And the NPC's should have that cheap content. But player crafted items should always be superior. This disconnects the player market price from the NPC price and allows income and expense to develop organically for the players that choose to participate. This is how UO worked, and these are the same developers, so I think your argument that the supporting code is just too darn hard to write is just your assumption, because this same team wrote that code once before, and could do it again.

    As a professional programmer myself, with 20 years of experience (admittedly not in gaming), I can tell you that if the systems were well written from the start, there is no reason why adding these types of changes would present any serious hurdle. The hurdles are in the idea, not in the code. It just requires imagining where the idea can take the game. However, the problem is that this game is free to play, so the developer has a good deal of incentive to code things that cause the existing supporters to go 'YAY!' and they are not necessarily rewarded by creating great game play.

    I know a lot of folks are into this game for a lot more money than I am, but regardless, I've never paid $815 bucks for a video game before, so I'd just like my opinion out there so that maybe someday I don't feel like a complete sucker. I remember a better game, and I hope for a better game, but what I have right now is something partially imagined, and I'm just trying to help imagine it up to the robust price a lot of us paid to get in.

    In response to @majoria70 .. This game back in 2014 was supposed to be released within a year. Around the same time, Kerbal Space Program was becoming a hot 'early access' title. That game, is arguably more complex, from a smaller and far LESS experienced team, and went 1.0 over a 14 months ago. Yeah, SotA is unfinished... Unfinished but mysteriously sitting on 14 million bucks of player contributed money. A more experienced team has more money and nearly three times as much time to produce a product and still hasn't.

    I'm not hating on SotA, I want it to succeed, but I'm really starting to wonder where all that money is really going. I'm sure Richard Garriott appreciates the boat payments we've made for him, but its time to admit that for a game this long in the tooth, its pretty-much not anywhere near done.

    As long as they can pump out another piece of simple custom art and sell it for $15 bucks in the market to pay the bills, there is no reason to write a compelling game.

    So, which shall we play? Something like UO? Or just pixelated 'flip that house'?

    Demand a game... Please.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
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