Virtuous PvP

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Kain3, Jan 3, 2014.

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  1. Kain3

    Kain3 Avatar

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    What bothers me about the PvP threads is its all about dead horses. Beaten down to pulp issues in PvP that require trial and error to address (and even then you would not be sure if the path you choose would be the right one for everyone).

    Thats why I want to talk about something that might sound stupid but I had it in my mind all day at work and I needed to get it out to you guys.


    For intro I would like to quote what Wikipedia has in its entry for the Ultima game series in the "Virtues" section:


    With the above in mind it is obvious to all of us how important Virtues are in Richard Garriott's games. Having noticed that significance it can only come natural to us to make this question:

    "Can the Virtue system work within PvP?"

    And thats the topic of this thread. Do you believe the Virtue system can work within the PvP frame?

    If I were to answer it I would say yes.


    "But how?"
    Thats a good question right there.

    When playing the Ultima games your actions have consequences. What if those consequences were moved into the context of player interaction?

    The idea is to take the 8 Virtues:


    - Compassion: A Heart (NPC escort quests / resurrect others with up to 80% full health)
    - Honesty: An Open-Palmed Hand ("Lost" items / NPC merchant discount)
    - Honor: A Chalice (Honoring then killing monsters / walk amidst monsters without being attacked)
    - Justice: A Set of Scales (Killing reds / increased power scrolls amounts)
    - Sacrifice: A Teardrop (Sacrificing fame / self resurrection)
    - Valor: A Sword (Kill champion spawn monsters / ability to activate and advance champion spawns)
    - Humility: A Shepherd’s Crook
    - Spirituality: An Ankh

    and apply them to both PvE and PvP. The PvE part is obvious that will be in the game (the title alone should be a clue), so why not expand them into the PvP context as well?

    Compassion could be gained by grouping with others to aid in their quests
    Honesty could be returning looted items to their rightful owners
    Honor could be gained by fair PvPing with others that are capable of defending themselves
    Justice could mean killing the PKrs
    Sacrifice might be done in a various ways (like sacrificing your own health to heal up others)
    Valor could be gained by going against odds
    Humility and Spirituality perhaps could be gained by how well the community/people you interact with think of you, or something similar applied with an ingame mechanism.

    Gaining in each of the Virtues will give you something as a reward (as is with the previous games that utilized the,), possibly a Virtue-depended buff or perhaps a certain skill/ability, NPC discounts, etc.

    The status of your Virtues should be somewhat hidden to you, because the point isnt to create another grind, but give incentive to the players to follow the paths of the Virtues not just with the NPCs but with their fellow players as well. Titles could dictate to the other players what virtues (if any) you follow.

    At this point one might say that adding the Anti-Virtues might be a good idea and I agree fully, but I wanted to gauge the community's interest in the idea of mingling the Virtue system with the player interactions.
     
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  2. PrimeRib

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    Good vs evil doesn't work. Despite the number of people who like to argue this, those PvP threads themselves show why it inherently doesn't work. Bad / toxic behavior needs to be completely separate from any faction system.

    Factions around say Truth, Love, and Courage could work and is the most obvious solution. But there are also many possibilities where different groups simply have different spins or interpretations of virtues.

    You don't want "grind virtue to win." That only really works in a single player game over in a few days.
     
  3. Kain3

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    Actually its not about good versus evil as much as about discovering oneself. Are you Just and Honorable, or Valorous and Honest? Perhaps you are Just but Cruel, or even Valorous but a lying piece of...whatever :p. The point is to add more depth to the PvP than the "I kill you and call you names" or even the "I kill you and I loot you dry". PvP these days is mostly superficial. It really takes out a lot from the whole experience. Yes you might feel a bit of rush/adrenaline, yes you might increase in PvP points/level (Im against it tbh) or even material things (victim's items) but its just limiting and shortsighted if you really think of the possibilities.

    I may not have commuted this properly since English isn't my main language.
     
  4. Owain

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    Virtuous PvP is what Anti-PKs practice all the time The KGB was founded upon the concept of Virtuous PvP.

    But if you are looking for an in game reward, perhaps you don't understand Virtue at all.
     
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  5. Umbrae

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    I surely hope the Virtues are heavily integrated into PVP. In NWN, which is D&D based, you had alignments which on most of the PVP server really just set you to one side or the other (good vs evil). However, the best PVP came from people RPing their alignment and basing their action on their character internal belief. Some system go fancy with alignments and would adjust you based on responses in conversation or some out of combat action which did not match.

    The problem with combat is intent is hard judge. When you attack someone was it justified? Did they attack you first? Were they just insulting you? So on. However, I would love to see our actions in all things, including PVP and combat, affect our position in the Virtue system. Its just not a small task, and in the end how, if at all, does that affect our interaction between human beings in-game.
     
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  6. Kain3

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    I used reward because some people are that close minded and might even give the whole thing at all before discarding the idea. UO actually had rewards for practicing the virtues and since this is a game perhaps some type of reward of any kind (not loot mind you, perhaps emotes, a title, that sort of thing) might be a good thing.


    This guy gets it ^. Thank you. Yes it is difficult to apply, but I dont think its impossible, not with people who have done so much with just 6 months of working on the game.

    For example:
    Justice: Anti-PKs are all about Justice. So if you kill "Reds" you gain in that Virtue
    Honour: Never to attack unarmed people.
    Valor: Fight against odds or even stand your ground in combat and dont retreat (move out of the localized instance)
    etc...
     
  7. Owain

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    What reward did UO have for supporting the virtues? I can't recall any, but they may have been added after I stopped playing.
     
  8. vjek

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    In my opinion, this comes down to target demographics. Who is the target audience Portalarium wants?

    Do they want to attract players that value no-rules direct player conflict, and be able to take everything from their conquered foe? Wolves eating sheep.

    OR

    Do they want to attract players to direct player conflict where death is meaningful, but not punitive, and where strategy and tactics play a part in a larger world plot mechanic? Wolves fighting wolves.

    OR

    Do they want something entirely different, for direct player conflict?

    Which demographic is larger, of the two that have been tried before? History, as is often the case, has the answer
    No-rules full-loot pvp is not innovative. It's been tried before and failed. Why plan to fail, again? Most people I've seen that want these two mechanics ignore the fact they are not available in dozens of games that had the choice to add them. Why didn't they add them? Because they guarantee failure in a competitive market. As you say, Seon, no-rules full-loot pvp, along with many other variations on that same theme, is simply superficial and shortsighted. So many other better solutions are available, when you take off the no-rules full-loot pvp blinders.

    Personally, I'd rather they use a mechanic that is both logically sound and has a proven track record in the market, if they have no other better innovative solution at hand. A far better choice than choosing a design that's both logically unsound, and has failed in the past.
     
  9. Kain3

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    • Compassion: A Heart (NPC escort quests / resurrect others with up to 80% full health)
    • Honesty: An Open-Palmed Hand ("Lost" items / NPC merchant discount)
    • Honor: A Chalice (Honoring then killing monsters / walk amidst monsters without being attacked)
    • Justice: A Set of Scales (Killing reds / increased power scrolls amounts)
    • Sacrifice: A Teardrop (Sacrificing fame / self resurrection)
    • Valor: A Sword (Kill champion spawn monsters / ability to activate and advance champion spawns)


    The in the parenthesis left of the slash is what you need to do, and right of it is the rewards. So you see they are not very important rewards. I would call them "cosmetic" for lack of another word.
     
  10. Owain

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    Yeah. This must have been after my time, but I never paid any attention to this kind of nonsense. Virtue 'merit badges' seem a bit ridiculous to me. Virtue is its own reward.
     
  11. E n v y

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    Ok......as a well established PvPer/PK, I may as well burst a bubble.

    The majority of extreme PvPers are not overly interested in virtues, for us virtue mechanisms are more RP.

    It's all about the PvP, the thrill of the chase. The fun in killing and looting as well as the thrill of the risk attached to it.
     
  12. Kain3

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    Indeed it is and I agree. For mature people like you and me its a way-of-playing, for some others not so. Still I used them as an example of incentive to promote the whole mechanism. While I played UO I didnt use them solely because I found out about them a few months before I leave the game (guild disbanded, people fled to WoW, made me sad so I left). If I had the chance again I would surely explore them. Now, if they were in PvP it would be RP-PvP most of the time (if not all)
     
  13. Kain3

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    If its the thrill then I guess that after looting the victim you give him his stuff back, right? Cause after you drop him and take everything he owns infront of his eyes there busts another bubble: The thrill is over.
     
  14. E n v y

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    This is because there is no risk.

    I kill someone, they run and get resurrected and lose nothing.
    Someone kills me, I run and get resurrected and lose nothing.

    Anyone who calls themselves a PvPer who doesn't want risk (eg full loot) imo is just a glorified PvMer.....all I can say to them is:

    "Tram this way ----------------->"
     
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  15. E n v y

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    No I take his items, if I need them I will store to be used. If I don't need them I will sell on my vendor. If I'm in a good mood I might give him items back.......If he complains I will destroy all of his items in front of him.
     
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  16. E n v y

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    Some players will mine a mountain for gold......a PK mines players.

    It's a trade and a way of life.
     
  17. Kain3

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    Ok but the subject here isnt about full loot, its about adding meaning and depth, not risk. That part you can talk about in the PvP/loot threads. What I described in the OP is irrelevant of the whole loot parameters thingie.
     
  18. Kain3

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    See? Now you are applying Anti-virtues. I think its a bit too early to talk about them just yet. Thank you.



    Indeed a way of life. And Anti-PKs hunt you down (Justice), even in overwhelming odds (Valor), where some "die" (Sacrifice) so you can be brought to Justice. They loot you and return the stolen items to the owner (Honesty). See how the Virtues could apply in the whole PvP?
     
  19. E n v y

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    What your trying to do is rationalise what a section of the community (PvPers/PKs) do and RP it out with virtues. You can do that all you like but the PvPers/PKs really won't be interested in the slightest.
     
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  20. smack

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    I also would love to see the virtues integrated into PvP. But I make no conclusion about how that will be done and will even accept it if the populace and lore of this game means wanton killing, murder, beheadings, etc. = "virtuous" behavior...however that means in SotA. Or maybe that's how it means to half the populace and there's a civil war going on to bring back the "old" virtues. You never know.
     
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