Virtuous PvP

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Kain3, Jan 3, 2014.

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  1. Kain3

    Kain3 Avatar

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    May I please ask you very very kindly to return back to the topic? Thank you :)
    Be Virtuous everyone and talk about how Virtues could be implemented in PvP or even player interaction.
     
  2. Ferrus

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    I see what you're saying, but just from my experience it's not the potential of full looting that keeps that section of people away, it's PvP in general. I don't think that changing the looting mechanics one way or another would have any bearing on whether those same people participate in PvP or not. I think having a healthy population of PvPers is more an issue of bringing in more customers to SotA in general, as a cross section of the newcomers will be of that mindset. Others will have a different experience and opinion though.

    However not to derail your thread further, I do like your idea about tying PvP to the virtues somehow, as I'm all for anything that adds to immersion. I would be cautious however about providing a tangible reward for acting virtuously, as you will just get people grinding for the reward rather then genuinely acting virtuous. Perhaps just have something as simple as the token karma/fame system Ultima has (do good things=good karma=good guy title) would be a way to tie PvP (kill bad people=good karma=good guy title) into the system without the risk of a grindfest. They could even flesh it out a bit more and have specific karma titles for specific deeds. Using your example of the virtue of Justice being tied to killing Pkers (Still not convinced these will exist yet though), they could just make it so after you have done it X many times you could have the title of 'Seon the Just' or something to that effect. This way you still get something for doing it, but it's no more than a fluffy title.
     
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  3. Kain3

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    Yep, that sort of rewards is what Im talking about. Nothing game-changing, but rather something fluff, but cool as well.
     
  4. Kain3

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    So what rewards to what Virtues would you guys/gals suggest?
     
  5. Ravicus Domdred

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    I need to think about this, I will post some Ideas later. :)
     
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  6. Ravicus Domdred

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    Do we know if we are going to have any Shrines to the Virtues in the game?
     
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  7. vjek

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    Off the top of my head, a purely cosmetic reward may be to tie the virtue colors to particle effect colors of certain spells or skills?
    So, if you become virtuous on the path of Honesty, you can make your particle effects blue, or blue-ish, or more blue, or you can add blue to your palette of custom particle effect colors. That kind of thing.
     
  8. Ravicus Domdred

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    Ya, I can only think that maybe it could be an in game guild RP event for rewarding virtue. Its hard to think of something that is not mechanic changing for rewards. Maybe different colored armor or tunics. Maybe a special brand on the armor or sash. I got to do more thinking.
     
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  9. PrimeRib

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    No grind virtue to win. They need to be more or less zero sum, like the Ultima IV gypsies. It's about choices. I'm pardoning the man who stole bread to feed his family. (-justice, +compassion)
     
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  10. Kain3

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    I like that actually. What other relations between the virtues you have in mind?
     
  11. Owain

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    What are you expecting in return by this action?
     
  12. Kain3

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    Considering that virtues will play a big role in this game, it will be an alternative way to raising a virtue. Maxing a virtue might result in, say, an item of virtue (most prolly cosmetic in nature)
     
  13. PrimeRib

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    The point is you can RP virtues all day with no issue. But as you start to put them into game mechanics, things will get out of whack fast. Are you creating new sets of currencies? Are you effectively making the game linear and one dimensional, because the "most virtuous" choice is the only real choice? Are you putting win conditions on a game that really isn't designed to be won? Or creating some infinite grind situation?

    I realize in ultima IV you could "sacrifice" you HP and then go get healed by LB, rinse, repeat. That's clearly not an actual sacrifice at all. And those types of mechanics really don't work in a game with many people over years. Perhaps running around with 20% less HP all the time, forever would be a sacrifice. And trying to embody more than about 2 virtues in this manner might be really playing the game in hard mode.

    When you tie things to game mechanics, realize people are not stupid. They optimize. There are achiever types in this world who will bend everything in ways you didn't expect to find the shortest path to some kind of dominance. So even if you personally wouldn't think to do this or are just looking for some interesting flavor, it will be done. And you'll see weird looking adverse incentives cropping up everywhere as people do this. You'll find people camping / zerging / "kill" stealing the beggars to give their money away, taking wounds and healing all over to increase their compassion, or making PK alts and killing them over and over for whatever points that gives.

    With any mechanics, you have to think "what if someone doubles this?" "what if someone tries hard and can't keep up" "what if someone runs this in reverse, intentionally", etc. As soon as you tie two together, you're getting some cross-product of optimization possibilities. All of which represent some kind of exploit vector.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with a virtue mechanic, or even crossing virtues and PvP. But you have to think "if one side is good, what's the other side? Why are they here?" How does this game repeat? Do these sides have some incentive to collude, trivializing PvP?
     
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  14. MalakBrightpalm

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    When I walked into a town in U IV, and events led to me being deemed unvirtuous, even though I had been thinking and planning (in real life) a virtuous approach, it did not have the effect of making me regret my decision (though I did resent it's consequences), it diminished my respect for the virtue system. The idea of holding PC's accountable for their actions is laudable, but as the ultima series itself has shown, it's damnably hard to get it right.

    I think @PrimeRib is right with his questions here, too few game designers manage to create something TRULY balanced, so that munchkins like me cannot simply pick the obvious paths to some sort of sustainable power base, and then use that to dominate a section of the game. Of course, if there aren't SOME power bases to focus on, if there is no sudden realization that this skill and that skill make a great team up, then the game becomes vastly less interesting, hence balance.

    I think a virtue system that truly embraces BOTH ends of each virtue, so that it's not about getting a reward but about WHICH reward, a system that does not judge us for our actions but merely responds to them, is the first piece of the key. The CITIZENS can react to our virtue status, reviling our cruelty or laughing at our cowardice, but the actual virtue system should not.

    Then it becomes possible to make the game inclusive of all types of behavior, and that adds far more complexity and realism than any programming team could ever deliver.

    The same is true of skill combinations. If there are intentional "best" ways to solve a problem, then those will become both a focus for the munchkins, and a limiter to diversity and innovation. If instead, the devs put out a system that they think SHOULD be balanced, watch how it works, and (this part is vital) refuse to nerf anything, but instead buff and improve the powers that AREN'T used until balance is reached, then the players will have the experience of having their creativity and effort rewarded by a diverse variety of builds and strategems with which to interact. Which is kinda the point of a classless system, right?
     
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  15. Kain3

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    Yes, people might gather around beggars and offer them money in order to gain compassion or whatever, but there could be no way to measure how far up you are and/or you can limit how fast a player can gain in a virtue (either limit per day or have the gain from the virtues per deed to be small), which will make people who are into grinding think it twice. Additionally its also how gaining in this or that virtue will be implemented. If the game allows you to "exploit" some deed to gain in a virtue then the problem is in how it was coded, not the concept itself.For the beggar example you could have giving money to the poor to work once per 24 hours or something. The whole thing isnt to fill a meter really fast, but to have inter-player interactions be meaningful. You really must understand that a virtue system would simply gauge your actions against other players. A PKr might gain in Greed (for example) and he will be known as Greedy and people will see that, while someone who doesnt attack first might gain in honor and that person will be known as Honourable and so on.

    Again I have to emphasize, do not think of it as an RP mechanic, but rather an ingame deed consequential mechanic. PvPrs keep saying they want consequences added to the game and I believe this might be the way to do it. Whatever interaction you have with other players will echo in this system. Such a system can be expanded by adding its counterpart Anti-Virtue system with its own "merits" and "rewards", so you dont have to be good in order to enjoy the application of the system.

    As in UO, same here only one Virtue could be maxed and as PrimeRib mentioned in a previous post, raising one Virtue through your actions might lower another depending on the deed, same with Anti-Virtues.
    I have been thinking that you can have the whole thing optional, by having it starting by a pilgrimage quest or something along that path, but that would mean that it could be ignored, intentionally or not and that would make it pointless.
     
  16. Kain3

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    It is quite possible. It is called Forsaken Virtues. Thing is that a shrine could not be a building, but rather a landmark (a city, a mountain, etc).
    As for rewards here are some examples:

    - A special dye tab to dye your clothes or armor a specific color
    - A title, a cloak or a tabard with the symbol of that specific virtue wearable as long as you remain in that virtue.
    - A recipe for an item (I suggest non-combative item)
    - The ability to sacrifice your virtue to self-resurrect (which means you have to top it again in order to be able to re-use it)
    - A consumable unique item (cant have more than one in one character) that does something
    - A naming scroll which inscribes a name you choose -based on certain parameters- for your weapon, piece of armor, shield, etc...
    - etc...

    Same applies for Anti-Virtues as well.
     
  17. Owain

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    This is the kind of thing that rubs me raw. Where lies virtue in doing something for a reward? That is not virtue, that is grubbing after STUFF, which to me seems to represent the opposite of true virtue.
     
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  18. Kain3

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    Its called reward. There is a reward for whatever you are doing in a game:
    Crafting: craft more and better items and either use them or sell them
    PvP: Loot, etc
    PvE: Loot, story, etc
    RP: Story, experience, etc

    So I dont see it as a problem. You can simply ignore the reward should you wish. No one forces them on anyone.

    Ofcourse you must realize this is just a game and no real life where being virtuous takes away the reward expectancy.
     
  19. Owain

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    Sure, but I just think it's hilarious to see people proposing a game design based on being virtuous, and yet lining up for their expected cookie as a reward. The irony is thick.
     
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  20. Kain3

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    I understand what you mean. Real life is full of such examples, still you understand why a reward is suggested, I assume?
     
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