We can't dumb down the game any more than this! YAY

So just food for thought, you didn't consider the main (and quite painful) main hit that applied the DoT in the first place. Math wise it made MUCH more sense to keep the 5 stacked douse as that added BOTH a +%fire resistance AND +fire resistance which benefited from stacking the buff up than to worry about cleansing a weak DoT. Especially when you consider the nature of healing in this game where it is much easier to recover HP when it's ticking in smaller intervals than to recover HP that was lost in giant chunks. We have various HoT's in different trees that all can act as a direct counter to fire's DoT damage, we don't have anything however on the level of douse that reduces fire's direct damage.

 

If we wanted to do that, we could just go play any of the myriad of games that flat-out gape D&D's mechanics.

 

What? You're saying it's a bad thing? Can't be too bad if it's lasted this many decades, played by millions, and copied by many now can it? Hell many aspects of UO drew upon D&D so lets not dismiss it so easily. People didn't come to Shroud of the Avatar because of combat deck mechanics.

All I was saying was that there were already worked out systems in place that people have been balancing for years and years and we could look to these sources for inspiration and not have to completely remake everything from scratch or keep trying to be different on everything just to be different on everything. Do you understand where I am coming from on this?

 

I seriously doubt that the reasons you died was because of the main long lasting "buffs" faded. This conversation seems to be about those mainly and not the ones you get from devotionals/food... it seems to be talking about Enlightenment, Strength of the Earth, etc which none of those with the extended durations are life threatening to lose. The ones that might actually cause you to die would be the DEFENSIVE COMBAT BUFFS with far, far less durations. In which case, most people would be reapplying those skill buffs whenever they could as that is part of the skill system.

This seems like a moot point now.

 

Well I can't go back and show you 90% of my deaths, so I guess you just won't believe me. But it doesn't make it untrue.

I'm sure if Chris looked at deaths for last month (with the longer buffs) he's see a solid decrease from the prior month. Or he'd see a solid increase in experience gain as people may have died more but gained more overall XP because they were moving up in class (now able to have extended buffs without fear of dying as often (read: almost always)).

Most of the buffs are defensive in nature, btw. Even the offensive buffs play into your defense. If you can fight creatures that have just enough hit points that you can out DPS them before they kill you then offensive buffs act like defensive ones.

I didn't make the OP on a whim, I know what I'm talking about from experience.

 

Ok, so then tell us how losing your Enlightenment buff killed you? Tell us how losing your Strength of the Earth buff killed you... Tell us how losing your Air's Embrace killed you? Did losing Celestial Blessing kill you as well? Douse maybe? But then you just reapply... so is this really about losing Douse?

So you either want the buffs or you dont... the timer wouldnt really matter because you would just reapply anyways. Most people watch their skill/buff durations, so only people who don't would need worry, sort of like those who rush into battle and forget to refill their focus (and needed to).

 

I think it's all a matter of perspectives here...

The way I see it, is that anyone who is soloing is presenting the "offline perspective" in our game rather than the MMO.

I went out with a band of hunters last night in search of dragons and other 5 skull nasties. I kept a close eye on all those buffs of my party and I'm certain they kept a close watch on my own "little buffs", because I have a locked skilled chr right now which is locked in the upper 50s. There were anywhere between 5 to 8 of us and they were blowing away dragons as if they were lent which only reinforces my thoughts that must be having more powerful monsters which will deserve all the easy buffing, because as with that hunting party, only maybe one chr was ever dying while taking those monsters. Then there's the mobility question when it comes to ranged combat. When mobility comes in the form of horses or mounts, this will increase the power of all ranged combat.

It's all a matter of perspectives and those perspectives effecting the individual "or the group (mmo) ...
You should be dying in the MMO if you do not have enough in your party to compete, no matter how long or short any buff is or is not.
Dragons ain't S#@t, and they should be, or something larger is coming... which it is always coming If things are getting easier, then there's a reason.
~Time Lord~

 

I know where you are coming from but have dealt with this mentality for 20 years. It's good to get out there and group and I do with my guild mates but please do not be under the impression that if you are not actively grouping then you're not playing an MMO. That could not be further from the heart of the genre. Just having many players in the game makes it an MMO. Even if there was no option to group they would still be affecting everyone either through economy, dialogue, services, etc. You don't always have to group. Sometimes people want to just do their thing for a little while, whatever it may be. Doesn't take away from the MMO experience really.

As far as dragons go, well let's just say challenge mobs, there will always be different levels and strengths of these mobs. As far as dragons go, some are easier than other and that's intended. Dragons come in all shapes and sizes from hatchling, to young adults, to ancient wyrms... So there is no reason that all of them must take a group or raid to take down. Same could be said for a lot of other boss types. Just like players are not all endgame, been playing for 2+ years straight and have 50+ gms and tons of epic gear to support them. You have a good bit a range there. Those not as strong certainly need to take others with them. It wasn't long ago that Krul would kill the groups we'd take there... but now my brother and I take and run people through there all the time. Now that I can do it, I'm not going to complain that Krul isn't strong or challenging enough... it is for its level of difficulty. Just like not all groups can take a dragon. It may seem easy to you now if you've already skilled up all you need to take on a dragon and have gear that helps you do it, but there are plenty of players just waiting for the day they will be able to tackle that which you think is too easy.

My guess is the game will continually add more and more challenges and hopefully for all levels of play instead of just end game only. I can only hope so.

 

But that is a self imposed solo... and a solo should be very difficult at our highest level I think you would agree. That is an easy target when it doesn't kill at least half of the party of 8 in the MMO. For me to say it isn't, would be for me to accept an easy game at it's top level, which I just can't respect as truly MMO challenging.

The Nystal TimeLord chr made little difference in that party with his 50's combat skills all in his little deck of 5 combat cards and 5 short lived buff cards
~Time Lord~

 

@Time Lord
Wait... what? Im confused on your "self imposed solo" statement... and then jumping to "and a solo should be very difficult at our highest level". Are we talking about soloing in general or soloing challenge mobs?

 

I think this is a symptom of an ever bigger-problem, that it's too easy to learn and progress deeply in multiple combat schools. If, in order to cast all 5 buffs at a strong potency, you had to sacrifice in other areas, I would be okay with this. You would be playing the role of a support character, giving up individual effectiveness to a degree in order to provide your party with strong buffs. As you rightfully comment, there is no choice in the matter. The same applies to being able to learn all the combat schools. It's not about careful consideration of what schools you want to master, which ones to dabble in, and which ones to ignore, it's simply a matter of which order do you take to become a Master-of-all-trades just like everybody else. The same applies to crafting, to be honest.

This is a bigger conversation with what direction the developers want to go...are we all supposed to be clones of each other where the only difference is how long it takes us to unlock every combat skill, or should we be making careful choices each time we learn a new skill.

 

The best thing about this game is that it is really fun to do a lot of different things. If one is forced into 1/1000 facets its 1/1000th as interesting.

 

I'm guessing you are simply talking about people able to solo the lower level dragon? I'm also guessing you feel that all dragons should only be end-game content as well? Is this right? Because if you are, see the above post ^^ I made again. Different levels... different challenge difficulty.

As far as self-imposed solo... it sounds as if you don't like it when people do things on their own? Or don't group up with you to do things? Im sensing there is more going on here with this than someone just playing by themselves.

 

Solo in general my friend I'm normally a solo player with extreme limits I've places on my chr's build make-up, in much the same but opposite of our @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos . We are both sort of Yin and Yang in that way, his being the more complex yet mostly restricted to magic and mine is more simplistic being limited skills and all in melee.

When I speak of perspective, it's most always because so many of our chrs are hybrid chr's with multi skill disciplines (being a almost classless game). Yet when opinions come from people who play restricted chrs, then those opinions are quite corrupted coming from such restricted chr's experiences in our game. At the highest levels, some of our chrs are "class set" in many ways, yet not restricted in "all ways" which forgo the learning of other skills. At the highest levels, most of our players are of the classless breed, which means that all other opinions coming from class players fall short of being any aiming post of where our game needs to be heading.

Nystal TimeLord is built for dying and will continue in that way, having a restricted set of skills with no magic at all. In this way he will have great damage ability with the swings of his sword, yet must rely on other more rounded chrs for his revival. "He's a side kick MMO chr" and most likely will never attack anything 5 skull large in solo. Having a very low amount of skills means his death is almost meaningless with death decay.

Yet more to the over all picture of our MMO combat...
Our duels are not reflective of a more proper view of MMO combat design within development. Duels are fine for now, but those views of how development of combat design fall short of producing a clear MMO picture and only best serve those views of the "single player on or offline". The reasoning in this is because major battles of more Avatars change the dynamics of "the party or large combat unit". When we are speaking from our own individual chr's perspective, we are seeing the battle from an "I" and not a "we", which means that those perspectives do not create a solid aiming post of where our MMO development should lead to. "Few if any players are aiming for being a side kick" and are most only speaking from an individual perspective when it comes to any battle suggestions from their perspectives.

Far from it... I actually play solo most always I like all sides of battle solo and party and if it's a party of 100+ vs 100+ I become quite a fanatic about it
*(TFS) The Fellowship (Order) UO Siege Perilous Guild... aka, the largest PvP Guild until their end on a player based economy. Long live our sovereign the "Thunderlips"

The missing pieces within our current population are the role and skill sets of "the side kicks". We do have them in varying degrees, yet extremely few who have fashioned their chr to totally fill that role, "to be highly expendable and draw fire while attacking whatever is attacking their main hero". Yet when those side kicks are almost solo heroes themselves, then that role becomes far less expendable because of death decay penalties stemming from their high exp expenditures spread between so many different skill disciplines and not in a restricted way even in their single discipline of skill they've chosen. "Whatever is attacking the hero, the side kick's job is to become expendable crew member #1 in any Star Trek episode" Their job is to be at the hem of the trousers of their supporting hero. In this way, MMO becomes MMO just as the Lord of the Rings party had all of their differences "and views of their own personal weaknesses or strengths".

So it's not that the individual view is not useful, it's that it's funneled into a focus of only them, which does not describe all of what an MMO has to offer or need to be developed into. Thus the individual is not the perfect view and never has the same perspectives as another, though they may agree on many things, "from the individual solo perspective". We have 2 solo modes of play. One which needs to have the soloist most at heart while the other is a more challenging game which should not be able to be won on a strictly solo basis, which is where much of the solo perspective's views are based from.

~TL~

 

Hey Timelord, not to be disrecpectful, just want to make sure we are communicating on the right page here... but it seems your statements are incoherent and disconnected from what we are talking about.
Soloing... perhaps we have different definitions of playing "solo". Duels... what does that have to do with MMOs or this one in particular or in regard to the topics of soloing or being able to take on challenge mobs with/without a group??
Part of your post does seem to talk about players looking to be group supportive instead of simply choosing skills that better themselves... but that is mechanics you need to take up with the SotA devs to make more rewarding for players... still not considered "solo".

I think you are mistaking playing solo for simply playing for yourself and/or only making choice that better yourself. You can make a character build that only supports yourself and still help groups and others and not be considered playing "solo".

 

Oh no dis taken my friend This is about perspectives. While some may see or split words to imply there's a difference between hunting alone or solo, I see them as one in the same thing Our offline content will be forced to be adjusted for strictly solo play, while our online play must be developed from a MMO point of view, meaning that teams should be able to take all content while the solo hunter should not. Looking at broader pictures often takes looking away from the focused "I" of everything. When the individual rules the mass battle field, the individual looses, unless it's in the movies which cannot be depicted in an MMO game or any mass field combat.

Most people misunderstand Cthulhu. Yet I think it's also the need for monsters an individual can't overcome and demand a group acting together.

~TL~

 

This.

I dont see a connection between this (the OP) and "dumbing down." If anything, what you described, sounds cantankerously complicated. I wasn't even aware of the stackable nature of buffs used in combat (i use them out of combat), and am not willing to take on the cognitive burden of using the dual deck switch in that way. Sounds like a PITA, dont want to do that to remain competitive, so I am all for them limiting the buffs.

I like the suggestions that @Blade Savage made, though I also think that stacking them is silly.

It really isnt that simple. Its never "one person" or even "a few." Its more than complaints, its usually detail analysis of logs vs game experience, and usually the devs make decisions based on what is healthiest for the game long term.

Yes, most people struggle with loss of familiarity, its an odd psychological phenomenon that leads to all kinds of things like toxic relationships and jobs you hate. It would be, however, quite unhealthy for the game to stay in a state that isnt good for its longevity, much like a person should not cling to familiarity when the end result is any kind of unhealthy relationship. People will get familiar, and due to this very human trait, be upset when change happens. That does not at all mean the game has any lesser chance of success due to change, more the opposite actually.

All in all, the problem with all the buffs being overpowered in some way, is that it forces a specific playstyle and forces specific spells and techniques be used. I believe it is an underlying agenda of this project to eliminate that sort of trait from the MMO experience (i.e., avoiding 1-2 templates FTW syndrome).

I, for one, am remaining open minded to this theme. Its sort of like the artifacts - not very many games have this trait where you always have to consider some drawbacks to things like buffs and gear. IMO its actually moving towards a "dumbing down" direction (to use the threat title here...) to remove negative qualities. Firstly, I think we should rely on our base builds and skill at the game itself before relying on buffs to succeed. Secondly, I think it forces buffs to be situational, rather than a base game mechanic where you have to click a button to do something that could just be accomplished through your avatar stats or gear. Thirdly, - see the familiarity rant above - doing something a bit different like this is healthy and refreshing for the gaming experience overall. As I always say, Im backing this game because its different from the bland "every MMO is the same with different UI/textures" syndrome that had me give up on them and just play UO freeshards. So I suggest we keep an open mind and try new quirks like this out for many weeks to a few months before rejecting them. Familiarity is boring and bland and Ill be damned if I pledge money to curtail this experience down to meet my expectations for Yet-Another-MMO.

Subjectively speaking, do I like the negative traits on buffs? Well, much like everyone else, my immediate reaction was "wtf? nooo!" Then I thought about it like the above paragraph, applied a lil' critical thinking, and then thanked the devs for continuing this theme throughout the game (beyond artifacts). At this point, I want to see it also applied to armor, weapons, clothes, etc, in a sensible and lore-oriented manner. Maybe leather offers no protection to blunt weapons? Maybe metal armor reduces stealth/camo skills by 80%? Random thoughts, but the devs now have me thinking against "Everything being super positive" in terms of buffs, gear, food etc. Heck, even with food, I shouldnt be at max fighting skill after eating a freaking Bear steak, I should need to rest and digest! But a watermelon? Time to kick butt. Etc - keep an open mind folks, and dont just react so hard to things. Try them out, esp over the long term. Give it a chance to become familiar, and think critically about your reactions - you might just be rationalizing a defense when all that is really happening is the emotional discomfort of change. Lean into the discomfort.

----

Also just curious, why is "dumbing down" an acceptable term, but "care bear" is a bad word? Seems like that should be switched around lol. I am legitimately trying to understand, not trying to make waves with that question.

 

I just want to add that looking at ui timers going up or down isn't exactly my idea of engaging gameplay. Rather focus on creating interesting mob mechanics.

 

YES. It's an AWFUL thing. I'm saying that. I'm saying there is room in gaming for more than one game.

 

Lol and I am so happy you were with us. I still die in groups but this group we were in is a particular focused group whose been around a while and played a lot so their skills and levels are high, And yes the dragon should challenge us more, or there should be other dragons that challenge more in other areas then. I would love to see wyverns and ancient wyrms and dragons that talk and attack if you say the wrong thing and of course more dragons that are not made of metal. I'm always wishing for more types of creatures that are cool and also for polish to the dragon, he could use an update to make him look nicer, oops sorry getting off topic in my imagination.