Why do we need a newbie-mega-guild?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Earl Atogrim von Draken, Oct 2, 2016.

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  1. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Yes it is all about implementation. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal unless it is your main reason for playing this type of game, but for many people this is the kind of mechanic we scan for before deciding to buy/play a game. For me personally this is as huge of a negative as an announcement like "You know what, we changed our mind and you can no longer decorate your own homes" would be for other people. It is not a feature that should be thrown into the mix without some care and consideration of how this affects the existing guilds, clans and communities.
     
  2. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Fully agreed on that one.

    Since communities is what really makes a difference for longevity in the MMO parts of this project I think that it should get a lot more love than the old trope.
    I'd say that this one feature/concept is one of those times that a scrum team/delegation would have been nice. But that it is probably not plausible given the circumstances.
    This since if we could get someone like you and someone like me which are from two ends of the spectrum on this specific 'guild/groups' concept but who both are/have been very active within them, then if we can both agree on a solution then we are golden.
    While if either you or I get turned off by what is presented then we might need to call Houston.
     
  3. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Ok let me try to sum up what we have got here so far.

    - We will get a world chat
    - We will get a system where you can join more than one guild
    - The Hospitallers DIDN'T ask for it

    Amiright so far?
    Yeah i know it isn't a real world chat but with the multi guild system it's only a question of time untill somebody makes the guild "World Chat" and everybody that wants a world chat will join it.
     
  4. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Only time i recall it being discussed at all was here https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/please-go-multi-guild.20094/
     
  5. DavenRock

    DavenRock Avatar

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    I am for multi guilds only if you can set one main and the rest social groups with little permissions. I also agree with everyone that we need more baseline features for guilds and alliances before we do multi guilds or 1 guild and multiple social groups. . I am also in favor of the newbie guild being a choice to participate. I think this kind of feature is a great idea and at mgt we've been using the same principles since the beginning. Bring in new players, show them around, help expand their knowledge and let them join whoever they wish. I think the best thing to happen here would be to secure the features for social key groups instead of multi guilds, this way you are in One guild, but can benefit from talking to your social circles(multi-group/guilds) with limited permissions, such as being a guest in the multiple subguilds rather than someone who has access to charter homes. *ahem*
     
  6. nonaware

    nonaware Avatar

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    guilds - groups of players that work together to achieve a desired result or full a purpose in game.

    social circles - people that want to chat and hang out maybe do something together every now and then.

    i dont like the idea of multi guilds. but adding social circle groups to the mix is some thing i could fully support.

    what do i see a social circle being? a group with their own chat channel and the ability to open property to that circle but unable to do things that i hope in the future a guild can such as claim an area/land/scene via pvp.

    in essence all it would be is a glorified chat room with no features other than being a social club.

    while a guild will have i hope lots of things they are able to do in the future such as guild wars, land claims, and other things i cant think of off the top of my head.

    i like the idea of no global chat but in all honesty that will not make for a successful game long term as there is such a steep learning curve.

    i finally had managed to bring some people from other games into shroud last week and not one of them logged in sense. partially i blame myself as i am not good at explaining systems and such but i also have to point towards it being hard to find people to talk to and ask questions.

    but i am against the jumbled mess that multi guilds could become. alliances are one thing and would fully support social circles and or clubs as long as they did not come with the functions of guilds.

    wall of jumbled text and ideas sorry :(
     
  7. Audacity

    Audacity Avatar

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    Phase 2 of the Oracle's plan.

    Resistance is futile.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

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    Simple facts.

    1) Implementation of multi-guild functionality does not remove the option for a guild to be exclusive. A guild can demand it's members only join one guild. This objection is without merit. No reason not to implement multi-guild/alliances and give us additional options.

    2) Newbie Guild or Global Newbie Chat. Both offer nearly the same functionality. A vocal part of the community objects to Global Chat for all. So the Devs decided to call it a Newbie Guild. I say do both! Maintaining and increasing population is crucial to a successful game.

    3) Steering newbies into selected guilds. Anyone has the option to focus on new recruits. If a guild decides not to spend the time and effort, they will likely not have new recruits join their guild. This complaint makes no sense. Either use the tools to recruit new players or don't. Respect the results of those who put in the effort. Recruiting newbies will loose a guild's elite, special snowflake status. Next thing you know those newbie recruiting guilds will become multi-guild Borg hives assimilating everything. Goonswarm!

    4) Save the complaints for something that really matters. For example slowing down overland map travel without implementation of features to the overland map such as hidden treasure caches.
     
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  9. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    The problem here is that spammers could re-roll characters to stay there indefinitely. Better perhaps to allow 45 hours of play time access per account before being evicted automatically from the outlander chat channel. If spammers want to keep spamming, it will cost them effectively $1/hour plus the inconvenience of repeatedly going through starter scenes (the channel doesn't activate until the starter scene is completed).
     
  10. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Stop complaing about the slowdown on the overland map. It was there before and we all knew it woud come. See? I can do that too.

    It may not matter for you but as you can see it matters for other people.
    I know you think you are good at swatting arguments but thats not the right place nor the right time.
    Global chat and multiguilds through the backdoor just sucks.
    Thats no way to handel stuff l ike that.
    If you want no part of this discussion, there is the door.
     
  11. Cirsee

    Cirsee Avatar

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    Usually my first experience in a new game that has been around for a little while is the annoying spam of guild invites without even talking to me first.
    Most people that would be interested in this game are not new to MMOs and may feel the exact way I do being immediately stuck into a large guild they didn't ask for. Some people just want to go the ropes on their own and talk to the people they bump into when they start playing. That is the general way I started joining guilds way back when. Having that great total stranger take me under their wing was huge. I think it would feel very impersonal to be forced into a guild and a likely large guild, without getting to know anyone better right off the bat.

    The next problem you have will be policing all that new guild stuff. You are going to get people that don't want to be there, people begging for everything, the rude and the friendly. Interacting with a new player to recruit them helps to decide if they will fit into your guild as well. You are removing that initial check and balance system. It will cause huge drama. I can't see that as being a positive experience for your new players; nor those doing the policing. You will have the good and bad of the forums without being able to delete an offensive post.

    Top complaints/statements I have heard from other players as I tried to get them interested are:
    It isn't released yet? I think I will wait till it is fully polished and released (a lot of people don't like to test games flat out, they want a finished and polished start point)
    They don't understand the deck system and how to use it to its full effectiveness.
    NPC interaction with underlined text is confusing and responses seem unrealistic (obviously a polish issue).
    The expense of the pledges/bundles/add-ons. (People come from triple A MMOs and don't understand why a piece of furniture is $20 here and $5 there)
    What is the real benefit of housing that it is so rare?
    How do I level up these skills?

    Your best bet is tutorial quests, not walls of text that will just get quickly closed down. You can easily point to your helpers web site from these quests in the end. You can post interactive bulletin boards in starting cities to help direct lost players further to helpers or to showcase events where they can meet new ones on their own. Your strong point is your social aspect and the events of the community. Lord British also has the reputation for deep and meaningful quests. Story is a big thing for us older players as well. It is the reason I play some games and not others and I have other guild mates that agree.
     
  12. Alexander

    Alexander Avatar

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    I strongly agree with this point.
     
  13. KuBaTRiZeS

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    1) yeah the classic "its an option so you don't need to use it". Shenanigans. Because something is an option doesn't mean it doesn't do any damage. Options are mostly responsible of the game not being as closed to be finished as it should.
    2) yeah, same functionality and totally unrelated to the reason exposed for it, which was dropping new players into a guild so they can be guided by... ¿?. So i say do none! why we end up swallowing something we shouldn't have because it's supposed to fix something it's actually not fixing?
    3) actually i don't care about this one. It's not like we don't have enough tools to recruit people though... Anybody heard about actually playing with other players then saying "hey you're cool cmon join my guild"?
    4) Yeah let's complain about the elements that push the game closer to being a game. You know... with actual challenges and elements where your choice matters. Let's just keep a tavern, a marketplace, and a mine all neatly communicated with a chat. That should be enough. I cannot believe i'm hearing that slow travel in the overland map is "early" because there aren't "features" on it when we are talking about putting a global chat "early" because our game lacks the "features" of robustness, coherence and a gradual learning curve.

    Looks like your simple facts are actually disguised opinions.
     
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  14. Mykll

    Mykll Avatar

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    Are there ways to tell who the new people are in this guild? Who the helpers are? Is it purely by guild ranks? I don't belong to a guild so I have no idea if those are possible. In FFXIV, in the Novice Network chat, we have this:
    [​IMG]

    The chat channel is split in the member listing by Mentor and New Adventurer (NA), and when they chat in the chat channel you can see that the NA people have the little sprout icon. So everyone can easily see the type of person chatting away. Now again my server is old and mature so we have far less NA people (probably 80%+ of those flagged as NA are really alts). The Devs set up the system and the players self-moderate. The Mentors can invite (blind invites or no) NA players, can kick people out (Mentor and NA), etc. Now, they can throw a ticket for a dev to look into in case of any abuse, but it just an example of a system put in place by devs and player moderated. Just like we had in any number of other games. And a way to tell the new and vet people apart.


    I don't fully understand what you mean by a guild being a gold sink.


    This is exactly what happened in FFXIV. There is no global chat so players made a chat channel when adventuring out in the world. So I fully expect eventually that there will be the official player run and player created "LFG Guild", "Trade Guild", "Global Guild", "Crafter Guild", etc.


    Thanks for posting that I was about to go back into the historical updates.


    Do you mean this post? Specifically, this sentence?
    Maybe my definition of "dev supported" is different from yours, but as soon as the devs tell the world that "this thing is here go to them" then to me that is dev supported. Which happened long before this topic, or news of an a forced Outlier Guild, or any of the posts here fearing Hospitallers will be taking advantage the the youngling minds of this new guild.

    And looks like it was further supported on Discord as of 05/11/16.
    [​IMG]
    Which yes I know is not the official forums, and who knows if Hospitallers dare ask for this behind closed doors or if it was in the open. For me I don't care. I don't care how a solution or system is brought up. I care more on the WHY it had to be brought up, and the HOW and WHY it is finally implemented.

    WHY was it brought up for Discord? Well ok now Hospitallers have a place on the official forums, on their own website, in game, and now through a dev supported Discord server to be put out there for people. I have no issues. And well, a separate server chat, with corresponding voice chat channel, Hospitallers grouped up to the right so we see their names, they flagged a different color, and they can easily "log in and out" at will to flag themselves ready to help others. I think that was implemented well.

    This new guild, I don't care how a solution was brought up. But WHY did it have to be brought up? And HOW and WHY was the fix for that specific reason implemented in this fashion? That I certainly care about more. This is not an EQ clone, or dare I say WOW clone. We all backed this for various reasons, the main point that I think we can all agree on is that it wouldn't be yet another re-skinned MMO clone. Sure some may wanted UO with new graphics and that is it, other wanted something else, but I think we can agree that we wanted something different. And when we are given something different, there is a LOT of new things to learn, lots of new systems to try to figure out. And that comes at a price. The learning curve is higher than any re-skinned MMO.

    By the way, whoever linked the Hospitaller notes thread, thank you. I flagged that yesterday to watch the thread, so next time meeting notes are posted I will be notified. Chances are good I will never be able to make most meetings if any, but it is nice to even be able to read when I can. Unfortunately there is a LOT of info out there and some things do get lost, for me anyway.
     
  15. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    This games development is unique in that the dev team encourages community involvement. Many ideas and projects started by players have ended up being encouraged and supported from radio stations to hometown, gustballs and player owned towns. All of these things and more would not be in the game if they were not organized, developed and pitched by players and later supported by Port. One thing most of them had in common was a lack of people wanting to answer requests for help during their construction and an abundance of people complaining that they were not involved after their creation.
     
  16. Fister Magee

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    You could put an alt in the Newbie guild, and recruit to your main's guild! ;) This could be interesting...

    edit: oh I see skimming that that was mentioned, anyway.. :)
     
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  17. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    Well, if we're opening up more options for joining multi-guilds, (thereby implementing global chat) I want to join a Novian Peoples' Chartered guild.. It will be me, and all the NPCs of Novia I've befriended, and I'll be able to talk to them in that chat no matter where in Novia any of us are. I'll befriend all NPCs and quest givers including the Oracle, and no longer have to visit any town, palace, hamlet, dungeon or confirmatory.. just type: 'hea nam job hel vir rum bye' every day in the NPC guild chat, and I'll cut all my quest times in half! If you stop to think about it, multi-guilds essentially turns the chat channels in SotA into a rudimentary Novian Internet. Now, like in real life, I can quest from the safety and comfort of my baron bed in Brittany central. Hurrah for twisting old-school ideas and implementing them to 'enhance' gameplay into an immersive simulator. We go through real life typing on the internet, not running around, finding and talking to real people, why should we have to do that in a game? Genius. This renders immersion-breaking question marks and mini-map pathing obsolete, by cutting out the middle-man! Why go find the NPC at all? Just guild-chat him and send the item by Novia Post.

    The fact is, global guild chatting isn't immersive, and it shouldn't be explained in the gameplay like it is unless it has serious costs and limitations. A newcomers chat channel is important, and would be beneficial to the game, but it shouldn't be a guild, it should be something extra, that is moderated to ensure it isn't abused as global chat, which isn't meant to exist in SotA. Basically, anyone abusing the newcomers' channel to advertise guilds or vendors or towns should be permanently kicked from the channel. Advertising for such things should permeate the world in an organic way, in-game. Not on global chat channels.

    Thanks for hearing my opinion on this matter. I wish everyone a great time in New Britannia.
     
  18. Mykll

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    That I completely agree with. And follows the WHY and HOW the idea was brought up and then implemented. Having fragile MPO connection (PELICAN, but has been getting tremendously better) I have not partaken in a lot of community events (well, ok, ANY) but from what I can tell they have been implemented and supported well. But one difference is new players are not forced into a "Gustball Chat" or "Gustball Guild", and having all of these events, these player run activities, does not seem to contradict or offer a backdoor reason or implementation of a form of global chat.
     
  19. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    The new player project and the outlanders guild are not the same thing, one is a player initiative and the other is a dev initiative intended to further those efforts. You were talking about hospitallers in your quote.
     
  20. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    And the problem is moderation. Who do you expect to do that? Berek? I think hes got his hands full on the forums. going fully player moderated just seems like a path to chaos. This was one of the most compelling reasons not to have global chat; there is simply no manpower to moderate it. Having it in a guild will be just as frustrating.
     
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