Yahoo! Games: article + interview

Yahoo! Games recently posted an overview article and in-depth interview with Richard!

Article:
https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugg...oost-with-shroud-of-the-avatar-220404471.html

Interview:
https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugg...-world-of-shroud-of-the-avatar-204054433.html

Some really great info in the hour-long interview and it covers a lot of ground.

A couple teasers:
YG: I’m curious, though, do you worry about how much of the design autonomy you want to give to the user versus maintaining control yourself – are there cases where you might see suggestions come in from the player base and you feel that’s just the kind of game I want to build, or these guys are not professionals, it’s not going to work?
RG: You’re quite right. We get design suggestions, complaints, and/or ideas from players that we toss out regularly. So it doesn’t change our sorting process; it just changes....

YG: And in many RPGs, there are doors that open and doors that don’t open. Some doors are just painted on.
RG: Right. And, by the way, I still fight with my team. One of the biggest fights I have with my team to this day is, .....

One interesting tidbit was when he was giving us a fairly technical deep dive of his current food design for the game. He revealed that there will be food spoilage!

Check out the article and interview and discuss below!

 

So that's what happened to my suggestion to add meth labs and batman to the game. They tossed them out! Unbelievable.

 

Excellent article.

RG: And so what if we say there's a maximum amount of stuff you can shove into your gullet? Well, that would mean that if you're a magic user, you will want to eat more carbohydrates. If you're a front-line warrior, you're going to want to eat more protein. Pretty much everyone's going to want to have a nominal amount of fat in their diet to keep up the energy burning. Suddenly, therefore, it's relevant what you eat.

I like where he is going with this. Certain types of foods effects ones character in a certain way.

RG: And we're also putting a half-life into food rotting, so chefs also, by cooking foods, take the spoilage probability down. And so while you can actually eat the raw materials by all means, if you're carrying some fresh apples in your pack, it might only last a week or two. Whereas if you plan to carry beef jerky in your pack, it'll last forever. But it's only protein.

This makes cooking much more relevant. Aside from salted meats 'lasting forever', it would be nice to be able to create other foods that are preservable that contain some carbohydrates, although they may not be as potent as food that is fresh and unspoiled. Would like to see more details on this.

 

Yes an excellent read. I am liking the ideas related to food and cooking especially.

I played a game a while ago which some might have heard of called Salem. It had some very good ideas with relation to food and the quality of. They had a gluttony system, that was used for skill gain. It was exponential so you had to eat more to advance, gorge yourself and if go past a certain level you level up. Strange but innovative. This was a hardcore pvp game as well. Not just full loot but perma death.Due to the time taken for improving your area/crops/house etc, the price of death was very very high.

You could farm for various produce. Which all had certain levels of various 'elements'. Once harvested you got some seeds and possibly these seeds went up in various stats. You could also make better compost to fertilize the fields and increase chance of this stats increasing in the seeds. The advantage was that you could make a food say 'Rabbit in the cabbage' high in elements of your choosing. Apart from the rabbit that is as that was just a normal killed rabbit, the various grow-able parts to the recipe could be customized, increasing the potency of the final product.

I mention the above as seeing as they are looking to advance the food/eating element part of the game, i would love them to add some kind of need to advance farming similar to Salem, or better of course. A farmer only concentrating on one type of crop could possibly get the best genetic variant of. The finished consumable taking its potency from the ingredients used in the manufacture. It would add a sub economy/game for many of the crafters/farmers. Not just making a Apple Pie but, an apple pie made with the best apples in the world, Khloec's Rosie Reds, as an example.

 

I believe the crafting system we have in place could facilitate the type of gameplay that you describe in Salem. We have the generalized skills that could increase the quality of items gathered. So a farmer that pumps points into Quality and whatever skills he wants to specialize in like Agriculture. So you could think of the pure apple farmer who spends all his points on those skills that makes better, higher quality apples, would simulate that sort of system but they'd need to deepen the trees a bit more, imho. And with the maker's mark, you could definitely showcase your higher quality apples and you'd be renowned for that.

Skyrim has a great mod that I've used that goes even deeper than the one proposed for SotA:
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/10639/?

It shows ingredients for every food, including all the nutrients above and beyond just proteins, fats, and carbs. It keeps track of a ton of physical needs, has penalties for over consumption and has spoilage as well.

 

Yes, great interview. For me it finally clarified exactly where they stand and what their attitude is regarding the pvp thing and all the things they've been very carefully not saying up until recently. As I see it now, this game is going to be pvp-centric with some story and rp elements thrown in to pacify the non-pvpers, contrary to all the claims of it being otherwise. And the non-pvpers being treated as idiot children who just want to be protected so they're being thrown a bone with ways around some of the quest line and little places for them to hide.

RG: "So the experienced players' victim stories were universally great. The beginners' victim stories were universally terrible.
And so what we're trying to do with Shroud of the Avatar is to say the game fundamentally has a safety corridor throughout it. All the major towns are safe. All of the major ways to get from town to town are safe. But we've built into it some zones which are unsafe. What we're talking about doing right now is that there are some player-built cities that, that city might be able to declare itself unsafe. So as opposed to making this hard separation where you launch the game and you go to the Trammel version of the game and you're in PvP or you go to the Felucca version of the game and you're in non-PvP, we're saying the game world is unified. And any two people can choose to fight a duel if they wish, no matter where they are, but as they travel around, as you go from map to map, there are maps [which] are flagged as open, open PvP. And we entice people to go there. So there might be a quest line that means that you either have to go there, or you have to hire someone to go there. So if you're really a role player and you really just never want to face off another player, that's okay. You just have to become a quest-giver and give someone a quest to go over there and grab that for you. And you have to go earn enough money to pay somebody, to hire a mercenary, to go there and get it. But that way there's an encouragement to participate in PvP, but not a force to participate in PvP."

Sorry, but this is not the game I signed up for. And seeing RG say he believes that "experienced" players "universally" loved pre-trammel UO is a very disappointing surprise to me and speaks volumes about his attitude towards the miserable cesspool that was pre-trammel UO. I am by no means a "beginner" nor was I one when I quit UO because of those wonderful stories he so fondly remembers, and the implication that I must be one or must have been one at the time, since I detested pre-trammel UO, is insulting to say the least. This is not the image I had of RG, but such is life. For the record, I quit pre-trammel UO in utter disgust after a year of it, and only went back after trammel. I'm honestly starting to feel some of that old utter disgust all over again now.

And now, again, he's talking about "safe towns" and "safe tunnels" between those "safe towns,' etc with the added insult that non-pvpers get to be the red headed step children who can stay in those safe towns & pay someone to do their quests for them if they don't like it or go get their resources for them. No thank you. Since I've paid for it already, I may still play the single offline game (maybe). Or maybe I'll give away my account. Undecided at this point. But I will not subject myself to this bs. I've already stopped coming to the forum much lately because of the gradually increasing pvp-centric nature of the game becoming more and more open now. This pretty much does it for me.

 

I am curious as to how many quests will force people to pvp. Hopefully for the sake of those who don't want to pvp at all it will be rare. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing though to encourage people to ask others for help and or to pay them to do something for them. I am sure there will be many people who mainly pvp who may rely a lot on other players for things like resources and maybe some quests as well.

I also don't feel they mean for this to be mainly a pvp game with just some story thrown in on the side. To be honest I think no matter what he would have said someone would have gotten upset. I mean if he had said most areas of the game will be safe but we will have some pvp zones you would probably have people on here complaining about the game being too "********" and so on. I think they are doing their best to have a nice balance without completely separating pvp and pve. I don't think they mean to treat pve as "redheaded stepchildren" I really don't get that impression at all. I think they are trying to make both pvers and pvpers happy but as we have seen that is just about a near impossible task because no matter what they do one group or the other will say they are being ignored/neglected and so on. I am not sure what exactly he means by the experienced victims versus the non experienced, I can see how someone would get a little insulted by that statement I do get the feeling he may not have stated what he meant in the best way though. At least I hope so.

 

I am sorry to see you feel that way Noctiflora
I really don't think it will be as bad as you think it will. There are already limitations in place for making the act of death not as painful as many would hope for. The cost of attempting something like getting resources from a pvp area isn't that great imho.
Everyone has a certain play style, if you don't like or want to participate in what you describe, then don't. Get someone else to do it for you, pay for the goods. Let your play style whatever it is you choose pay for it. The areas of the game that you enjoy, do. They can fund the things you don't want to do. Its a bit like the real world, im no mechanic and i hate getting oily hands so i get someone who specializes in that field do it. Im sure there are many pvp players, who don't want to farm/craft etc. They probably hate that play style as much as you do the pvp side. But these players will still need these items/consumables. Not everything in the game will appeal to all, im sure many will find their niche and stick with it dabbling a little in other things. I certainly wont feel left out of things i have no intention of doing anyway because i dislike. If i want something from that side of the game, i will purchase it from someone that does enjoy it.

 

I think it's simply the ebb and flow of information and the way the game is being developed. Having followed this game with overly addictive interest since its inception, I can tell you without a doubt that both sides of the coin have proclaimed the game was more in favor of the other at various times. Just as a coin flip flops between which side it wants to land on through the course of its toss, the same could be said of how this game is perceived depending on which side of the coin you're on, or simply as a casual observer watching the coin's toss / game's development. The trick that is that Richard wants it to land on its side. Not an easy thing to do, so there will be compromises to maintain that balance.

And yes, I was deliberate not to define what those sides were, but feel free to fill in whatever divisive issue you want for each side and the analogy is still appropriate.

 

I was begining to think I was the only one who was starting to see this. RG comments are....dissapointing. To be the devils advocate, he does tend to say a lot that gets misconstrude.

As a person not really into pvp, it's kind of galling to think he thinks I want a "safe" area. I don't. I just don't want to deal with those who ruin my game experience with harrassment. I want a challenging game from a PVE standpoint...this is not to say I would never go into pvp, but let me chose when I do.

I have stated elsewhere that I too have felt the shift towards it being a pvp game, I have also stated that I think it will take time to fill this world up with enough interesting things to make it a good rpg...I'm not sure that is the goal anymore.

 

I would suggest again, if they are going to force us into pvp situations, there should be a no loot option, to minimize the shame of the certain slaughter to ensue.

 

I suggested in a different post that there should be a virtue zone for pve people, that if you have never murdered anyone, then you can enter that zone and collect the extra resources. That would be a fair balance.

 

Well I don't know what game you signed up for. The dev team has been saying this since day 1. I pledged because the were making the ultima games with an MMO feel. RG has always wanted to protect the beginner experience and then later on encourage people to PVP. That message has been put forth since I started following in kickstarter.

 

Perhaps when you visit the Oracle, you'll get your wish

 

Well to be honest I doubt it will be certain slaughter in the open pvp zones. Unless the open pvp zones are so rare that the pvpers are just super concentrated. Chances are actually pretty good that at least some of the time you could enter an open pvp zone and actually have very little chance of running into a pk.

 

It would reward the good instead of rewarding murder lol

 

You indeed might make it a couple times. Most of the time you are going to get your blankety blank handed to you.

 

We will see. For instance I play Siege Perilous the "hard shard" on the official UO servers. Nowadays it is pretty dead but when I first started it was fairly active. Even with the much greater activity of the past there was still many days where I farmed without ever seeing a pk. Also not everyone who pvps is a pk, many will be hunting the pks.

 

If you aren't flagged for pvp how would you even be at risk?

Putting (slightly) harder to get resources in PVP zones makes sense. It gives incentive to go outside of your "comfort zone". Not to mention hiring mercs (a role I plan on actively taking in this game) will mean revenue for players willing to take the risk to venture in these zones. Which, as has been said time and time in these discussions, will boost the economy.

I'm sorry but competing for resources, and PVP in general, will be good for this game's economy. I'm not even a rabid PVPr, but I'm not going to deny the benefits of it being in a game like this. Especially one that touts itself as a "Sandbox"....

 

Um....this game was not sold as a PVP game with a safe area for PVEr's. It was sold as a game with a deep storyline akin to ultima 7 and online capabilities beyond combat of UO..(not the exact line but you get the idea)

I have been here since the start of kickstarter and they were quite clear that you would never have to pvp if you didn't want to, that it would be in opt in. What I read in what you wrote is...if your a beginer you can fight monsters and then if you want the experienced game pvp.

I don't think anyone at this point is sure what game they signed up for...things keep changing.