No Sexual Objectification of Female Characters ? (Dev) Replied

I'm all for equal rights for any genders. Give me your cross dressing he-men who chat in a husky-feminine voice with mixed bodily odors and bald, hairy arm-pitted and overly plump women. We need ultimate sliders for the creation of our alter-ego avatars. Anything less is unforgivable.

 

We didn't reach that stretch goal and aren't getting it. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/stretch-goals.3470/
Additionally:
[09:23:21 AM] <+Astrobia> DarkStarr will we be able to create 'rotund' characters, if say we want to play obese merchants for example? :-3
[09:24:37 AM] <~DarkStarr> Astrobia: Probably not for Ep 1 but definitely later episodes. Non-Linear scaling is hard. Creates all sorts of sorting issues with armor, weapons, shields, etc.

So maybe in 2016 or later. If they had raised more money for more staff...

 

Can't believe we are having this conversation, but for what its worth:

1) Sure it would be nice to be able to morph character appearance every which way, but as stated in above post, probably not going to happen.
2) In lieu of that I would beg for a reasonable baseline representations of the two sexes which aptly express the inherent differences without being overt. The two are simply built different folks, its a fact. Men should look like men, and women should look like women, irrespective of clothing/armor etc. which brings me to...
3) If you want a suit of full plate (or whatever) to cover equally the bodies of men and women, that's fine, I'm on side, but it simply must be a different shape, and further I think should be a different "look" for male and female characters. It would be pretty boring for male and female characters to look essentially identical save for the tale-tale (if subtle), differences in curvatures/shape.

 

I like the current iteration of the female character, do not change a thing.

 

Well, in the case of a sporty leather bra, I'd agree if you're not generally allowed to be shirtless in a game. However, if it is possible for a character to be dressed as Conan, then I'd generally have little sympathy for people who cringe at the idea of that character wearing a bra. It's essentially the same as reacting with disgust at a man wearing a skirt or a woman wearing pants. The later is absurd now, but it used to be an argument that a women wearing "masculine" clothing was unnatural and evil and should not be shown to kids or in proper society. If someone argues against a man in a pink frilly dress or a bra (when they wouldn't complain at a shirtless guy) by saying they have the right to not see "such things", they are arguing for their bigotry.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people actually do make that argument. ^_^'

Personally, I fully agree with the Original Poster. Characters should not be restricted to one model, especially not when women are restricted to being sex objects and men are not. Allow for as many choices and as much variety from standard as possible. Whether that be a non-skinny woman, a skinny and elfish man, an androgynous individual, a woman with a beard or just a relatively unremarkable person (as in, not necessarily as idealised as most Fantasy characters). Not everybody in real life fit into the usual stereotypes that are ubiquitous in games, so it's quite sad when those stereotypes are the only options. ^_^

 

Out of the entire thread you choose to pick out a small comment about "equal rights" arguments. Which actually has very little or no bearing on the practicality of allowing cross dressing in a 3D game. You don't care for people saying "I don't want to this".. that's fine. I don't particularly care for "we need to cater to this" based solely on the merits of "I want this".

The point I was making was simply this "I don't want it" is just as valid as "I want it". If you're going to make a case for new features you need more than that. Each wearable item in-game has to be designed and built to fit every model they go on. SotA is a small team with a relatively small budget. It simply isn't practical.

 

Personally, I think if they make armor virtually similar for both genders, this wouldn't even be an issue. I'm talking about armor, not clothing. Women shouldn't be able to have as high of armor ratings if the armor is skimpy anyway. Armor, just flat out, should not be skimpy for either gender, otherwise it should have serious stat losses.

 

I think this is what the OP had in mind (thought it had been posted here). And be sure to watch it to the end.

 

Well, yes. I was pointing out the absurdity of something that is a pet peeve of mine since it was brought up. My reasons for it being a pet peeve is that it is not an issue of "I want it", but specifically one of "I want to be represented and not be restricted to narrow norms" contra "I don't want to look at people who don't fit my narrow norms" (e.g. the aforementioned leather bra.) I don't care for people saying that priorities should be based on the injustice of modern society (i.e. not having the resources for more than one character model in a hypothetical game would not be an argument for making that model a white man), not just saying that they don't want something.

An actual argument is the lack of resources to vary the models too much. My use of "should" was a, poorly communicated on my part, attempt to indicate that I was referencing how things ideally should be in my opinion. Perfectly understand that there are technical limitations, just wanted to point out that which options that are allowed should not be based in reinforcing bigoted norms (The aforementioned example of defaulting to a white man is something I've encountered a lot. It may be unintentional, but the result is that white men vastly outnumber everybody else as protagonists.). If the technical limitations don't allow scaling non-linearly, then a scaling between body types may indeed be impossible. Assuming more character models isn't an option, the solution is then to consider the models that are used.
Are they made to be neutral? To be attractive to heterosexual male players? To be identical to the standards of other games? To be average? To be athletic?

Having now played a version of the game, I agree with what has been posted here about the current iteration being pretty good at avoiding the common "must be sexy" mentality. Would still want more variety, but for what they can make so far, it looks like they're thinking about what they are doing in this regard and have done pretty well.

PS: It is already catering to someone by virtue of having two options with the body types they have. From what I've seen, they even specifically cater to white men by that being the avatar they most show off in videos and only later revealing the female one. I prefer discussing representation and choices to avoid defaulting to perceived norms and treating any variation as having to prove that they need consideration (for one, there is little reason why man would be the default gender, yet it often is), not to label them as not worth "catering" to.

 

I'm not going to sit here and debate "injustices" but you should consider that such arguments.. pet peeves or not.. tend to disregard the design/production needs of a game and often involve those who seem to enjoy being offended (and by virtue of such things turn both unnecessarily heated and ridiculous). One comment about the stats of afore mentioned bra in a different thread spawned some.. interesting responses let's say (which had absolutely nothing to do with stats and everything to do with going out of one's way to be offended and not reading the context).

The notion of catering by body types and skin tone has been addressed by Starr already.. that #1 more body types is nothing something they have the time/money for right now since all wearables have to conform to all body types.. and there will be more skin tones.

Games are not.. and one might argue should not go out of their way to "represent" for reasons of social 'justice' or whatever moral stance someone might make. Trying to please absolutely everyone tends to end up pleasing absolutely no one. It's just not practical. You do what you can to appeal to the broadest range possible yes.. but you do so within your means. (ie skin tones are relatively easy these days).. and from a development standpoint..

Also on "narrow norms" consider that some people may not appreciate someone else's "broader perspective" being forced on them. It still comes down to "I want" vs "I don't want" equals both sides saying "I want to be represented" equals.. that kind of debate who's just or unjust belongs somewhere else. On a game forum just isn't the place.

Here the bottom line should be.. what does a feature bring to the game? how expensive would it be? Does it fit world lore? Does it improve gameplay for a significantly large number of players? (hopefully a majority for a greater appeal). Would NOT having a feature hurt the game? etc

 

Please be aware that there is a plain simple reason why we will have only one type of body for male and female. Money and development time.

If you create different body sizes, you need to create for each new one also for all current armors and clothing a extra asset. That is tons if time consuming.

Darkstarr did say that the dev time needs to focus on other priorities
and a athletic avatar is the most accepted.

So no sexual objectification, just a matter if resource and money.

 

So the question is how customizable is the characters going to be? I understand there are many more aspects to the game that need to be polished up but lets face it, character creation is one of the most enjoyable parts. Maybe not for everyone but I spend a lot of time putting the detail into my characters.

I agree with the OP that some MMO’s out there really make females, and males while we’re at it, very super hero looking. I don’t mind it but at the same time I also like to play hideous looking characters. Perhaps the devs can add some sort of “boob sagging slider bar” during character creation except maybe not as silly as I just made it sound. If I can make an overweight character who’s gut hangs out the bottom of thier leather tunic I’ll play him/her in a second.

 

I think it's pretty unlikely we'll get body sliders for EP1 for the same reason we're not likely to see body types. Every wearable item would be effected. If the technology isn't in to warp/morph those items.. well let's put it this way.. think of every piece of clothing or armor like a body part.. because it essentially is.

Just like how hair meshes are usually swapped out for helmets.. torsos, hands, legs etc are all swapped out for new clothes and armor and every one of those items has to morph according to the slider settings.

As a Sims fan (in spite of EA etc etc) I think body sliders are probably the best way to go.. but it's probably not achievable for EP1.

Facial sliders though have been eluded to but not guaranteed. I think that along with base head types and some presets that we'll probably see facial sliders.. and then hopefully we'll have access to body sliders later on.. but that will mean going through and reworking all the clothing and armor in-game to make sure they morph properly.

 

"An assortment of "Body Types" is a welcomed idea by me"

Yet, when I see these retched NPCs walking the streets in destitute, "it makes me feel like we need a soup kitchen for the poor", out of shear compassion.
Yet also, I do not think we should enforce a dress code or attempt to direct or dictate any social style behavior.

Surely the King or any Lord of any kingdom would wish His Subjects to have some form of pleasantly styled (even if simple) way of dressing themselves so as not to be vulgar.

Allure has always driven everyone of every gender to wish to be viewed as acceptable. There are no fashion magazines that survive without fashionable people in them and there are few, if any products that survive without variety of beauty & fashion.

Open the soup kitchens or feed and cloth your retched people Sire!
~Time Lord~

 

consider that some people may not appreciate someone else's "broader perspective" being forced on them.Games are not.. and one might argue should not go out of their way to "represent" for reasons of social 'justice' or whatever moral stance someone might make. Trying to please absolutely everyone tends to end up pleasing absolutely no one. It's just not practical. You do what you can to appeal to the broadest range possible yes.. but you do so within your means. (ie skin tones are relatively easy these days).. and from a development standpoint..

Also on "narrow norms" consider that some people may not appreciate someone else's "broader perspective" being forced on them. It still comes down to "I want" vs "I don't want" equals both sides saying "I want to be represented" equals.. that kind of debate who's just or unjust belongs somewhere else. On a game forum just isn't the place.



What?
Broader perspective being forced on who? you? what perspective do you want? I think this is the crux of your argument.

And here I was thinking we were supporting this game to get out of the Anglo Saxon white cookie cutter game industry and boldly taking a new direction that was about games for the people.

This is totally the place to argue this, being that they are looking for our feedback. If they are aware of such issues, maybe in the future they can plan and implement them. Thus a collaborative and open game making process is in effect.

 

wow ok.. I'm going to choose not to comment on that one and bid you a good evening. Besides the discussion has rather strayed a bit off topic anyway.

 

Comrade!

 

Back on topic, while I am not saying we shouldn't have sexy clothes available let's also not have armor that exposes the heart/vitals offer the same protection.the armor I've seen already looks well enough (though the leather armor does have a "low top" iirc, not a terrible one but it's there), but if you wanna fight in a chainmail bikini you need accept that that is not armor.

 

??
I find myself torn between agreeing with the realism in armor thing, but at the same time I'm also thinking that in our game that magic has no realism to it at all (in real life it's hard pressed to find anything real in magic).
On one hand, it doesn't fit a real armor having a low cut cleavage,
But on the other hand, we're going mages with monkeys flying out of their butt attacking monsters

Monkeys flying out of my butt with cleavage, or no cleavage and monkeys flying out from some other place...
It's a hard decision for me to make...
I think I'm on the variety side of where the monkeys fly out of...
~Time Lord~

 

Oh and speaking of cleavage... why not a codsack availible for men?
~Time Lord~