PK´s are not a Pattern - the true reason they are unwelcome in MMO

I don't think anyone believes SotA will be that kind of sandbox anymore. I think that hypetrain chugged off a good 6 months to a year ago. I certainly don't believe any kind of open PvP will be anything more than arena-like areas for people to gather and fight each other for some loot (maybe). That's fine, it is what it is, and my expectations weren't that this would be UO 2.0 (although I know a lot of people thought it might be). I think this conversation just went into the realm of PKing and balance in general, not for SotA specifically.

As far as this is concerned, it isn't "pure speculation." We have proof Trammel failed after its brief peak in subscribers. All that shows is that they were able to retain players who weren't getting farmed at the Britain graveyard. Great. It lost its identity in the process, though, and the PvPers went to better games (Dark Age of Camelot) and the PvMers went to their better games (EQ, WoW). Considering popular freeshards at the time had anywhere from 500-1000 active players each, that was a lot of business EA lost with Trammel. It was a mistake. They could have changed the penalties and created a better system, but instead they fractured the community and removed what made UO magical.

UO was never a good game, and creating Trammel illustrated that. If it was, then people would still be playing it actively. Felucca freeshards have most servers beat, at least outside of the Asian servers, but Russian servers have always been heavily populated as are South Korean freeshards.

Was something needed to be done? Yes, absolutely, but splitting the community was not it.

 

Well, if you did it in that system I described, you'd be putting your friend in jail. Then he'd have to pay his way out (the bounty would be less than the bail, since the bounty increases the bail amount on top of infamy/counts), which would lose him money, or he'd have to break out, which isn't necessarily a cost effective way. You might have a hefty bounty (100,000 gold, let's say) but split 5 or 6 ways? It isn't chump change, for sure, but is it worth the risk of breaking someone out of prison afterward? 'Cause with a bounty that high, if you can't break 'em out and you can't afford paying the bail (which would be way higher than that bounty), then he's spending the next week or two in jail.

That's a gamble, and not exactly easy. That kind of bounty would also be getting close to that PD threshold, too.

 

Of course it does, and I'm thinking about it now and for some types of personality I would agree that it would be at best disruptive to their gameplay if they were really attached to their belongings, and if they had no friends to help them. Which is why I suggested so many things to tighten the community since the first day ; look I know its too late to argue about true open pvp and yes maybe we're arguing about the past but the truths remains and doth not change one bit. How good did you just feel writing this very quotable post, very good I'm sure because for the first time you speak full truth and the words came so naturally you had no tension in your mind.

It's rewarding in itself, and through the looking glass I have seen that its also very tied in the way people do not want to be disturbed or dragged out of their comfort zone.

Yet we hear we must get OUT of it from all the visionaries and people we're supposed to admire and respect in the modern world, the movies we like, the books we've read (tolkien, dragonlance etc...) even King Gariott will say it from time to time.

I think its the other way around Rufus, you guys have the old way of thinking, the very selfish way of thinking too because you are ready to eliminate DIVERSITY to reach security without realising who might get squished in the stampede. I could pull also about a 100 quotes about how this is wrong, especially since we're talking about a game and not risking your life or belongings.

If I understand the adrenaline ? Yes I've been young and felt my share of adrenaline + testosterone combined with tense intrigue and pvp ; its unhealthy and I don't recommend it to anyone, it even messes with your mind in the long term and changes your body wiring. If I understand how people can suffer from it yes, but have I seen GREAT paladins overcome that feeling and then ushering a radiant peace that could be felt wherever they went ?
Yes... have I also seen entire guilds being forged out of resisting those who partake in it. People bonded together where there had been no reason to before, turning individualists into altruists, that goes hand in hand with the virtues dosen't it ? Understand this is no justification : I think raw, unrefined and unreasonable pvp (yes I said PVP and not PKING) is wrong and unhealthy, but I cannot say well lets chop the head off everyone because I don't know which one hacked and which one was honest.

In the US there has been many people wrongfully sentenced to death, and we realised only too late the evidence. That is a dreadful example, but very worthy... we cannot ignore the virtues and karma, when speaking of life and death of a character or style of playing, we must be CERTAIN of what we're doing. We must invite diversity.

You see once you start your ascension as the avatar, you will see that you need to sacrifice your material goods, your comfort, your attachement, your dependance to a "well ordered gaming session that brought back profit or levels or whatever meta-gaming might tempt you".

And its much more than a sentiment, its also about clearing karma, karma that mirrors into the virtual world and allow you insight into unseen worlds, which allows you to understand your karma and to forgive others and to release it so your children do not have to deal with it.

Some might think I'm a new ager now, all this fancy wizard talk, but I haven't invented anything, I'm just the lucky guy who's hooked on a rocket so hot noone wanted to even approach it, and rode it until the very end to have a look from up there, as above so below.

I have been "oficially cleared" to say those things, and it comes with the part where you guys realise I'm nothing but a very ordinary guy with issues (specially generalized social issues) ; not grandmaster in anything, mediocre in alot of things including those subjects I debate about. But the vision I had, is pure like the shards of the gem I shattered unwittingly.

I'm not dreaming, we will have our game, we will get the prophecy and the vision and nothing in the world can stop that now.

I come to announce the dawning of the age of the avatar, and yes to ascend you have to totally change your mind set, and the equation instead of adrenalin + testosterone becomes more like serotonin + testosterone + oxitocin which create a realm of true trust and friendship, community and passion.

I see so much the word community being used lightly here, we all paid to be part of that, that isn't a structure that evolved to become dream and used illusion to create space for stealth and balance in order to preserve the breath of life that was in the original vision.

I'll stop there and I'm truly honored and grateful to meet others who have a long attention span and do not curse others with the ignore button, its already a releif from my mundane life being paid less than minimum salary, never having basic securities and slowly dying from cancer.

Just remember its more than a sentiment, its about prosperity and stewardship, its about preserving history and the vision, its about karma and the things worth fighting for, its about love.

Thanks for listening, its about time I stop being shy about who I am.

Royal seer and companion Ahuaeynjgkxs, at your service...

NO I DID NOT SAY COURT JESTER, SHUUSH *runs after the bully*

 

I do not want SotA to go that direction either anymore.

I play DayZ to exprience realism and SotA to enjoy community.




Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

I think some people are failing to realize that open PvP does not simply mean everyone is free to kill at any given moment.

There should be should many systems in place to hinder a PK. For example, in Mortal Online (and UO) guards were in place to fend off murderers. Many other examples of hindering PKs posed in this thread.

PvP is a sole part of of SotA, and most of the people that like this aspect of the game want more than just pointless killing. just like decorators want more items to make their home look pretty, just like some want some type of political system mechanic like voting people into office, just like the tailor wants to be able to craft more wares.

PvPers are not the only people that greif other players. My first encounter with being griefed in SotA was by a person that had no interest in PvP.

 

So I continue to do my homework...

At no point in the kickstarter was open-PvP described.
In fact the only Reference to PvP mention was to describe it as free from griefing - which is more or less the first word the majority of online players would use to describe a dedicated and persistent Player Killer in an Open-PvP sandbox.



Now...If I have done my homework correctly...

Those that favor PK in this thread are saying that to describe a "PK" purely as a griefer is an uncharitable view, and have been quick to point out at how they, and by extension we, are being "deprived" of an additional playing style(ref: thread title) by players who simply don't understand the fun and diversity that their style of play brings to the game - that this is a consequence of Freestyle Open-PvP and that Open-PvP brings a richer gaming experience that many will enjoy (Without that experience the game will not be as rich, as intense or as intriguing).

They are also saying that the absence of the open-pvp mechanic is worse for our game than the addition of it (and outweighs the consequent increase in expected level of increased PKing (griefing to the masses) that such a mechanism would bring to the game). Further there is an argument that this increase could be counterbalanced by for example a robust justice system, or crime consequence system.

The evidence used to establish these views as truth is from the example of private UO Open-PvP servers, and dedicated survival games such as Dayz, Seven days to die, RUST as well as more PvP oriented games such as Aion, DAOC, Albion Online etc..).

This was very interesting to me. I spent a lot of time reading the forums of those games. (Some of them, such as AO I will never visit again ).



So on the other hand we have the first hand accounts of the game developers from UO (and other places - such as Russian Archeage, Lineage 2 etc) telling us that the majority of PKs in these games are really only interested on preying on weak targets, and not interested in a challenge at all - they religiously avoid the competitive PvP Challenges almost entirely (PK and PvP are considered two entirely difference audiences as a FIRM rule of game Development everywhere I looked - including AO and Black Desert which seem to be the up-and-comers for open PvP ). PKs will in fact leave the game after the weak masses are taken off their kill list... even though ample oppurtunity remains for PvP scenarios in open areas: the idea of taking on prepared opponents is entirely unappealing after all. The Developers from UO describe how they were forced to do this because simply the PK crowd was cannibalizing the game community.
This sort of information is first hand evidence by the way from expert sources..permissible in Court, rather than the hearsay I experienced on the other side of the argument.


Secondly we have players who are counterarguing the PK proponents argument that removing the Open-PvP mechanic reduces their Choice ( I Count myself among this group - I am not objective in this essay) by saying: Your playstyle is about killing my Choices. Your fun comes entirely at the expense of mine, and Your play style threatens not only my enjoymnet, but the helath of the community I want to be a part of - because the overwhelming evidence, first hand, from numerous games and game developers, is that a PK drives gamers away.

PK is by its very nature the removal of choice from the player you PK. If I play the game to pick flowers and you play the game to kill people who pick flowers, then you deprive me of my game every time you PK me. In a multiplayer game the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. YOU DON'T GET TO JUDGE my playstyle. If the game devs made a game where flower picking is possible then I get to enjoy it without Your judgement or interference. PK'ers should never have any right to deprive someone else of their game, nor to stand in judgement over what the other player choose to enjoy.
The games DAYZ and RUST etc are exclusively and preemptively survival games. They exist specifically to serve the gamestyle you describe. As a reuslt there is an entirely different Level of Balance and playstyle. If someone wants that playstyle - they should go there. SOTA is not it. (EDIT to clarify: SOTA, as a roleplaying game is about the diversity of choice - not the removal of it).

So also.. In this thread there have been many example of griefing in roleplaying games. : griefing of roleplayers, Merchants, Lord British etc etc etc.. All because it was "part of the game".

No.. It was because the games were primitive and lacked sophisticated rulesets that such griefing could occur- but it was also more acceptable in the olden days because people realised the limitations of the games they played and had to shrug their shoulders and continue in spite of them.

We have come a long way since then (21st Century!!) and designers can code intelligent limits into the game that mean that one player no longer has the ability to interfere with another players enjoyment of the game. This does not limit the game - it expands it exponentially. It increases its potential and will bring New players in.
Open-pvp in the game can now be described as lawless zones, while safe harbours can apply to those who want another style of game. Only a griefer would argue aginst such an intelligent and fair system.


Lastly. *Stomps tiny foot*

The absolute lack of self-insight that PK proponents in this thread show is to me astonishing. The whole modus operandi of the VAST majority of PK'ers is to kill players who cannot offer an adequate defense: In a social context : "the innocent player". I dont think many people would disagree with me if I were to say it is the digital equivilent of kicking puppies - which reminds me of something a wonderful man once said.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”

It shows a lack of empathy and a lack of respect for other players - especially new ones. That you then blame us "The Naysayers" for limiting your choices in the matter, and hampering your style - depriving you of the spiritual successor to your nerwb-murder fest.. just becuase we come to this thread to provide a Counter argument to the original post and title... To Suggest that we are name-calling and picking on you for your chosen playtype is a rather brazen distortion of the truth. It is the reverse that is in fact true.


With deference and respect to Mr Gandhi I would like to hijack his genius a little:

“The greatness of the SOTA Community and its moral progress can be judged by the way its new players are treated.”


Homework Complete.

 

Deloria.

Very nice post. Agree and disagreements i have .

I further recommend this to you.

It is a little detour on our subject. But wonderful to listen too:

The Podcast: “The Myths and Politics of Media Violence Research”

I have it on my Blog: https://eyeoftheavatar.wordpress.co...yths-and-politics-of-media-violence-research/


Enjoy.



In some ways our discussion are no big difference then in history about the Community cursing about Comic Books, about the Radio, about the TV, the Internet... all was once cursed as the Evil itself and how it will damage us and society and our children.


So now it is a Game, a MMO that is on the plate and how it is set up to end with defining the Community within it?

Just because i play a game in a "game dangerous" environment does not mean that the person behind it may not be Mr Gandi


So if i kill in chess the King with my Queen i am also a evil person. But that game lasted very long and is loved. But it has a violent set up.


So again, SotA will not have that System. And it is fine with me. We will dance , play theaters and all be protected.

But do not judge the persons because of the games they play. Most of us do know how to seperate a real human being and the fictional world he escapes.

 

....I don't get it..again...there are no PK in this game right now...it is impossible due to game mechanics...there are only people flagged for PVP that want to PVP...and can only attack each others...how the hell do u say person A flagged for PVP is a PK and person B also flagged for PVP it is not?

We all do the same action...attacking other people flagged fro PVP...there are only some players more active...

...what u are saying, the incentive system and all that stuff, has sense only if there would be open pvp zone worth going into AND that u can not get in in SPO mode....

...there are not..

...talking about PK and anti-PK and incentive system for that unfortunately has no sense at all...

...in this game right now it is not possible to have an Evil side and a Good side...I think it would be way more fun for everybody if it would be possible...

 

Wow, you really quoted Spock and Ghandi ans managed to elegantly twist and corrupt their meaning... I like your style You really missed all the points, somehow, it also dosen't matter. You're free to practice forum arguments as anyone else is

Playing the devil's advocate isn't really "doing your homework"... I wish I had homework like that, taking my time to twist quotes and sayings into the reverse of what they really mean to further deception... sounds like alot of fun !

Anyhow here's some interesting food for thought :

After the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom was raised from the Abyss, the Great Council placed a seal over Destard and the other seven great dungeons, hoping to shield the surface world from the terrors that lay below. This, however, had the unforeseen outcome of creating a vast and expansive Underworldbeneath the soil, providing a haven for dark and unnatural beasts to flourish.
After Blackthorn's rise to power, the members of the council were criminalized under the Oppression, and suffered persecution from the authorities of the realm. With those who knew how to unseal the dungeons forced into hiding, the returned Avatar had to seek out the maddened Goeth, who knew the Word of Power that would reopen Destard: Inopia. Once armed with knowledge of this password, the hero could use the dungeon as a means of reaching the Underworld below, where it opened onto an area near to the lost Amulet of Lord British.

Magical shields having unforeseen consequences, how ironic...

 

Its perfectly possible. Flag for PvP and menace any other player flagged for PvP. OR Hang in one-of-many PvP zones and be menacingly evil . OR band together with an evil aligned Group and create an evil guild or evil PvP zoned POT and flag hostile to anyone you meet that looks too saintly.

The fact that you cant do it in the WHOLE WORLD ALL THE TIME is the neccassary limitation to let MOST of the other people in this multiplayer world enjoy the game their way.
It is the social contract neccassary to populate the game with diverse players and diverse Choices.

I dont understand how this is not obvious? Nor why it took 5 posts to get to the heart of the matter?

 

Quote"OR Hang in one-of-many PvP zones and be menacingly evil" ...have u have tried that?...I did..there is nobody not flagged for pvp...and generally there is nobody at all...there are in SPO farming...

.Quote" Flag for PvP and menace any other player flagged for PvP"....no sense for that...they are flagged and already ready to fight..

Do u know what is PVP now?...wait that Parallel log in and find him...he is the only one that is hardcore about PVP and always ready to fight...

Quote "The fact that you cant do it in the WHOLE WORLD ALL THE TIME"...u don't get in....are u sure we are playing the same game? it is not that I can not do it in the whole world all the time...I can not do it in any place and at any time...PVP now is just praying that Parallel is online and go to him...God bless him...

...There are NO places to do PVP...and there is NEVER a time to do it....

I challenge u...name one name of a PK...Jacob?...he is level 53 and he is so desperate and with no action that we duel each other and me I'm 73 level...is that doing PK?

There are no PK...there are not anti-PK...there is not PVP action (just Jacob, Parallel and me fighting in the whole server)...and you all talking about how to regulate a thing that does not exist at all...

 

PK tears best tears.

 

...do u wanna have a solution?...quit allowing SPO mode in all open PVP zone, starting from Shardfall...it is that simple...

 

Does pax and veritas really condone condesending behavior ? I'm not complaining its been a while since I seen such deep loathing...

 

Quote "PK tears best tears. " ...here it is...a person who does not care about the game but just enjoy teasing people hard working tring to fix it...u perfectly introduced yourself...

..Katrina Bekers...you are the perfect example of what the game do not need...you are the perfect example of how often the real griefing people that not care about the game and just enjoy other pain are not PK...

 

I don't pretend to be objective - I state quite clearly I'm not - but I try to present my points clearly. I don't think I've misrepresented any positions, and I present my perspective as clearly as I can, citing where I've been looking, and how i understand whats being said.. I tihnk everyone understands its an opinion piece, not a scientific survey - since I am Publishing to a game forum and not a Scientific journal

Ahuaeynjgkxs honestly though I wish you wouldn't respond to my posts the way that you do... its a bitt upsetting to be honest. That I corrupt Gandhis intent? I twist quotes to further deception? I tihnk its passive aggressive to accuse me of that and describe it as "sounds like fun" - to say you you like my style because I "corrupt their intent?".
I think anonymity gives people a chance to be crueler than they would be in reality. I ask you if it is OK to insult a poster as long as you can put smilies in the sentence? I feel you do that in a line like this:

Theres no need for that - I understand you disagree With me - but please if I'm wrong say why.
For example: Point to a source that describes PK'ers as misunderstood PvPers. Point to a Source that says PK will raise the popularity of an online roleplayeing game despite the loss of players who dont like it.
I dont mean heresay conversations between PK'ers. Others here have tried that and the evidence doesnt support it - because that doesn't measure up against testimony of experienced game developers who watched their games die.

Thanks.

 

...at the moment SotA has chosen to not have PK, anti-PK, and to not have incentive system for PVP...to not have Evil and Good sides...this is not arguable...

...and the points are IMHO:

1: Are u fine with that?
2: Will they change it?

...the solutions in case they change their minds are easy...I give the first...stop allowing SPO mode in open PVP zone...starting from Shardfall...

Unfortunately this sum up all the little contribution I can give to this thread...

 

Oh I understand what you mean, thats not why I wanted to upset you, its because I like you ! I do it all the time to people who's style I like...

And yes sometimes I like chaos, and this time I'm pretty happy about my active agressive stance

I can totally imagine the experienced well seasoned game developping skillful adept consummates watching their games die... *slow motion* Noooooooo...

I'll try to water it, it's still withering... I'll add chicken poo... now it withers while smelling bad !!!

*slower motion*

Noooo... I'll freeze it ! MWAHA

There, it won't wither no more HA.

Theres always a solution, right ?

 

1. No.
2. Of course. It's a game in constant development, in case you missed the memo.

 

I missed the memo...good news ...from witch patch?

...I mean...will they change it from next Release?