Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

You did private message me and made further arguments as to why my opinion was not relevant. You also tried to convince me that I wasn't personally attacked. I felt I was, you felt I wasn't. I am more qualified to determine if I felt I was personally attacked than you are, as you are you, and I am me.

See here you are stating my opinions are irrelevant. Just because I haven't explained them yet. . because I've been arguing semantics with you. . doesn't make them irrelevant.

You are very far off from correct. I'd love to help you understand why I think things, but the argument over semantics hasn't allowed me to do so.

Unfortunately you haven't asked me to simply defend my points. You have, but not without calling my opinions irrelevant at the same time.

I disagree, supporting any notion that my opinions are irrelevant is not civil to me.

Actually what you said in PM was that you were going to block me, which I would still like for you to do since you are the one messaging me, telling me that I'm wrong about feeling personally attacked and insulted. I will say it again, please do me the favor and block me if it will keep you from messaging me.

I'm finished with this thread. I will share feedback in on any further threads regarding conversations about the combat system, as long as that remains the focus of the conversation, but I will no longer argue semantics and participate in conversations that are not productive and are insulting.

 

@Jordizzle I m asking you to consider reading again my first answer to your post, because I think you didn't get the point of it.
I'm sorry if you find my post as a personal attack, because it isn't.
When I say something is irrelevant, I'm, ofc referring to the actual debate/conversation.
Your opinion might be 100% relevant and 100% acceptable, for sure, in a different context/debate.
I think you are missing the purpose of this thread.
This is not a like/dislike thread. This is a good/bad thread.
Again I'm not agaisnt your opinions, I'm against the way you expressed them.


There is some people taking a good amount of their time posting here to show their arguments,
we are having a very interesting and fierce debate, if you are coming here with your plain subjective
opinion, then you are contributing nothing, we are now debating about your opinion, instead of
debating about card system good or bad.

I would greatly appreciate you taking a moment to consider thinking about that.
Thx.

 

Guys there will come huge changes to combat so wait some days and than come back and talk again.

 

Many of us are. But to say "huge changes" is a bit misleading; there's no evidence there will be significant changes to card combat or addressing locked combat as a viable option. There's talk about making it feel less clunky, which is good, but not a whole lot less than that. A lot of us are against the principle of the card combat because it detracts so heavily from everything else.

We're waiting for R20, just like we waited for months for something previously, but from what they've told us there isn't an expectaction (nor should there be) that combat will change dramatically from what it is now.

 

No matter how many "huge changes" are made to adjusting the deck combat system, the fundamental issue of the goat remaining a goat will remain.

When a concept is badly flawed from the start, when the most basic idea of a system does not work within the rest of the overall design, than the only way to radically improve said system is to remove the flawed concept and start anew.

Otherwise, it is just throwing good money after bad; adding sugary frosting to a cake that has a horrible taste to begin with isn't the answer to the problem.

The fans who support the wretched combat system no matter what, because it's RG behind the wheel, and he can do no wrong in their minds are not doing Shroud of the Avatar a service, in my opinion.

Saying that the current combat system is "innovative" may well be true- but the truth is, when a RPG introduces a "novel" combat system that is different than other game's combat systems isn't fun, wrecks the immersion of playing your character and feels tedious and out of place- it's a bad system.

As a conceptual artist/designer myself, a supporter of RG's past efforts back to the original Ultimas, an original Beta pledger in Ultima Online and a backer to the tune of over 800$ on this new endeavor, I would bet anyone here 30$ that the deck combat system used in Shroud of the Avatar will prove the weakest single link of this game, that it will never, ever be used again in a real RPG, and that it will seriously detract from sales of the final product because of horribly reviews via mouth and game reviews.

Any takers?

60% of the backers who bother to write claim they dislike it, but the real test for me is that I hate playing the game when combat happens.

I mean, that is the ultimate test, isn't it? I've played every single RPG from RG's game stable to the Fallout games, to Bethesda's RPGS to all of Biowares offerings.

And most RPG'S in between.

I've DM'ed pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons since about 1977. I know about dice and card systems.

This year I've played long stints of ArcheAge, Darkest Dungeon, Neo Scavenger, 7 Days to Die, Star Citizen, and H1Z1- all of them from the perspective of RP in mind.

The combat system in Shroud of the Avatar is, in my opinion, inferior to the combat systems found in all of the above listed games, new and old.

We owe it to RG, for the endless hours, weeks, months of fun to speak the truth about Shroud's poorly advised combat system.

It's just a bad design, for any real RPG. if the game didn't have an avatar that you roleplayed, if it were a more abstracted strategy game, it might work fine.

All one really has to do is consider one word in the title of this game, to understand the fallacy of abstracted deck combat being included into the mix.

It's Shroud of the Avatar.

 

And while many of those die hard supporters have accused people of trolling, the truth is that these are fans, trying to prevent this combat system from becoming the (burial) SHROUD of the Avatar.

 

MAYBE. Maybe there will be huge changes. Or maybe Portalarium staff are still under the impression that just a bit more "fine tuning" and the deck combat system will suddenly shine. We here are making noise so that they will KNOW that a sizable portion of their core support base HATES the idea, the practice, and the implementation.

Now, I've said it before, and I'll stick to my guns. If the combat system is changed in such a way that I enjoy the card combat, fine. I'll play it, because I'll enjoy it.

But as I've also said before, I seriously doubt anyone can pull that rabbit out of their hat.

I want RG and Portalarium to be deeply aware of just how much revulsion they are inspiring with this system, in the people who were willing to pledge them support on day one, with no actual game to draw from. I want them to see how many people have joined these forums since steam came on and posted "Ewww, what is this combat system??" vs how many have come on and said "Yay, the combat is innovative and interesting!"

Ultimately, they are the deciders, not us. If someone convinces me to be a fan, but they ditch the system, then I still won't play card combat. If I convince every other fan to hate card combat, but Portalarium keeps it as a key feature, then that's how the game will be.

On the other hand, if seeing the bile that the deck system continues to inspire convinces Portalarium to change course, we could have TRULY massive changes, like a new system. And that would, in my opinion, be a great thing.

 

Here is my take....

Forcing a card combat system into a game like this just does not work. It is immersion breaking and serves no real purpose other then to be ''innovative''. What it really does is **** people off and divide the community. If the game is released as it is, the only people the game will attract are one who think RG is some kind of gaming god (He isn't imo) and force away the larger crowd of people who could be attracted to the game.

I haven't even tried R18. I read the forums and saw that the card combat was still in place and that people were still unhappy with it. I doubt that R19 and R20 is going to be any different. I would rather have the standard MMO hotbar if that is what it takes but anything other then what they have now.

If they ever get the player music system in place which is the real reason I wanted to check the game out, I might return. As long as I don't have to touch the combat to do so that is. Until then, this game is not going to appeal to me and lot of others.

 

I have no issues with card based games. I love most of them actually. The issue is that those games aren't promising a higher level of immersion like SotA.

Even if you enjoy the card combat, and I do actually think it's ok, it's not in the best interest of the design of the game. Magic the Gathering is not promising immersion. It's advertising itself as a fun card game, which is great.

I am not a PvP kind of guy, but this has to really hurt that crowd. It would be infuriating to do everything right and lose, not because of player skill, but simply because your draws were not as ideal as the other person.

If a townsperson is on fire, and I want to save them, do I have to stand there like an idiot until the appropriate spell pops in? That's not how immersion works! Why don't you give me control of the spells and abilities I've worked so hard in game to master? I don't want to fail a quest just because an ability didn't rotate in at the right time! If your argument to not liking the random draw system is to lock in the skills, then why have a random draw system?

Why don't we give players the ability to teleport to a town but make the town they go to random? We'll then give them the ability to teleport to a specific town, but we'll penalize them by making it take more focus and we'll make it take longer than just walking there.

 

@Jordizzle
There are several echo chambers going on in these forums. Mostly those echo chambers are on the too positive side. In this particular thread/topic the echo chamber is on the critical side.

Such echo chambers in forums are normal and dictated by human nature.

Posting a dissenting opinion in any echo chamber will result in an overreaction simply due to the numbers of people disagreeing with the dissenting opinion. I think that most posters in this particular topic have been on the receiving end of that while posting criticism in other topics in the positive echo chambers.

Combine this with a perceived monetary loss and a frustration over things not turning out like one wants and its very easy to lash out at any opposing perceived target.

But people trying to convince others that their preferences isn't real is just an exercise in futility. So even if you followed up your preference with "why" you prefer things a certain way, each of those reasons will then be attacked out of the PoV of where they are coming from.

Its akin to two people trying to convince each other that their music style preference is "objectively better", it just won't produce any productive result. Now picture a person doing that vs an echo chamber of fans for one of the music styles.

So to get productive within an echo chamber one needs to be within the same context.

For instance this topic has been productive several times when people focus on how to make the system fun/better for the users of the locked bar or no UI crowd.
While when it focus on the opinions of those who prefer a random deal it just becomes a flammatory exercise in futility. To quote myself from 30 pages ago.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...s/the-combat-system.23172/page-12#post-351025

So my recomendation would be to stay out of the echo chamber unless you want to tackle things from their PoV, and in this specific instance that would mean talking about how to make it more fun/better for the "locked" bar users or those who want no gfx UI at all.
Otherwise its like saying "I love speedmetal" in a lady gaga fan forum, the arguments or reasoning won't matter at all.

 

Okay, this is a little bit off topic, but why did you let yourself die? Why didn't you just run out of reach until you had time to guarantee you could heal yourself?

We've had some previous discussion on reagents; I couldn't figure out what your ultimate view on whether or not they should be required. Do you think it should ever be harder to use a heal spell than to just press a "heal button" ?

 

Not at level 70. Heal spell ought to be a well trained reaction.

 

I don't think levels should matter that much in the game, first of all.

 

Well to me, a positive way to eliminate the GUI and offer some type of penalty for casting a specific spell/ability (the penalty is the actual input time) is to make the person actually "cast/perform" it.

My way to do this would be to designate an action button that must be held to perform an action while entering a sequence on the numpad. Each spell/skill requires a certain number of keys based on their level. For example, a level 1 spell could be cast by the user holding "\" and pressing just one number on the numpad and a level 9 spell could be cast by holding "\" and pressing 9 digits on the numpad in specific order. That provides a GUI-less system and lets people have control of their casts. People could create their own number sequence for each spell/ability and thus have to keep a "spellbook" till they learn the combinations themselves. This makes low level spells/abilities usable quickly while high level spells takes longer because of the additional button input.

To sume up, designate a button to hold and then assign the digits based on spell/ability level. a level 1 spell requires entering just 1 button, a level 2 requires entering 2 and so on. This would work for other skills. Powerful sword attacks take longer to pull off for example. Certain skills could allow you to bond more powerful abilities to less button presses for faster performance of the ability.

This type of system also allows a huge amount of spells.

Example

Fireball level 1: Hold "\" and press 2 on the numpad
Fireball level 3: Hold "\" and press 2, then 3, then 7.
Fireball level 9: Hold "\" and press 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 8, 2, 1, 3 in that order.

I probably didn't word this the best but I hope it's semi clear.

 

I agree. In fact I don't even want levels anymore. We ought to just have skills and let them get a percentage better over time through gaining achievements, and usage, but no major advantage.

I would rather go back in time and remove leveling and skill "gain" entirely. Let the game be story based. Let skills function at some normal level and through use and acquiring achievements we gain bonuses like 5%, 10%, and 25% bonus to those skills and be done with it. Simple and sweet.

Although that sort of thing would require player skill instead of character skill. I was hoping this game could deliver the same feel and experience that UO had, but seeing that it doesn't, I have no problem with a game that requires skill on the side of the player. That way the competition remains fun, and the player themselves are good because they use the character well. Tactics is better than luck.

 

No fancy toolbars... rather just make it so we can assign certain skills and abilities as we see fit. Imagine if we could just play this game with a normal console controller with an X, Y, A, B buttons and triggers, and the two joysticks etc. Then we can have NO UI and just see the game world on our screen.

 

How many skills with how many triggers?

I mean, whatever problems you think are in the current system, or whatever ways you think it could be better, to me, the best thing about it is the combo system -- which I think is going to be a really important part of magic and spell composition. Spell composition is an important part of making magic feel alive, and we haven't had since U6 and UU -- in U7 and UO, you didn't have to type out Words of Power or combine runes; you just selected your spell from a spellbook. In SotA, you can combine an indefinite amount of spells to come up with brand new spells. So that's great. Its also a good addition to melee fighting -- since there are many ways to combine melee skills to do special fighting moves. The rotating hotbar gives you the ability to have a lot of skills available in small UI so you have easy key triggers for all of them.

So for example, there are 7 blades skills, 6 light armor skills, 7 shield skills, and if I go into some tactics, I might get a few tactics skills. Then, I might want to combine my melee with magic, so, for instance, to combine Thrust with Flame Fist to create Smoldering Shiv or with my shield to create Flame Bash. Or, for instance, there might be a skill later on in the game where I can combine Whirling Blades with Gust to knock back all the enemies around me in one swing of the blade. Or say, I might combine my caltrops with a Fireball or Discharge spell to make the effects more violent. The possibilities are endless.

Now, how could you combine 25+ skills on a fixed hotbar system system, all with assigned key triggers? Its not very easy at all. It may be possible, but I don't think the solutions some people are offering are good replacements.

Plus, without reagent requirements, a lot of them would feel a lot like "easy buttons", like the "heal button" I described. I mean, locking your heal spell still feels a bit like an easy button to me (although I should note you still have to escape combat when you're getting piled on, or otherwise your heal efforts will not be good enough). But at least you have a penalty for locking it; even just taking up room on a very limited space bar and preventing you from accessing more skills is a penalty.

 

That is why I provided my take on a new system above in post 634. It takes a little more player input and I'm sure someone could take my idea and improve it. You could make certain buttons correspond to certain runes for example. It definitely helps immersion as well. I would love for us to take my brief idea and craft something we feel is a better system in the end. I wanted to do what Spoon suggested and try to be constructive instead of destructive.

 

6 to 8 skills. Who cares about skills anymore. Just let them be moves that we can execute. If it is magic let the person use magic, if it a weapon attack let them use a weapon attack.

If a person uses magic let the spell you want to cast be triggered by taping the correct two buttons. Say the person wants to cast lighting and the player assigns lighting to B + X in that order, then the Lighting spell is the active spell. Just pull the trigger to shoot lighting, and let it keep shooting lighting till the spell is changed.

If he wants to use another spell, like heal, then lets say he assigned heal to Y+Y and then the active spell is heal. And he keeps casting heal every time he pulls the trigger.

 

Melee fighters could do something different say, just tie the combat moves to each button. So that the X button is always knock down, and the right joystick is the direction he used sheild bash, and the Y button is stun, and the trigger is the normal base attack. Something like that.


This could all translate over to the keyboard only as well.