A Changed Perspective on Release (rmt)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Superbitsandbob, Jan 31, 2018.

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  1. Tahru

    Tahru Avatar

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    I guess you are right when it comes down to it. I can't help but see it as a crime. Perhaps, I am just to stubborn and set in my ways just like some of the politicians I hate. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers at all.
     
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  2. Lace

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    I can get ruffled feathers but not this time lol!. I think its been a constructive discussion with each side voicing concerns and defenses.

    Its all good!
     
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  3. Numa

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    Bravo @Cordelayne !

    Just to add my own take on it, the digital assets we have in SOTA only have their full form and function within the game that Portalarium made. My +10 flaming pike only exists as a 3D model plus a database record of it's characteristics outside SOTA which is a pale shadow of it's full power and significance when I'm facing off against the troll at Cooper's Pass. The legal clauses define my rights to the virtual pike in the context of the object within the context of the game.
     
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  4. Lace

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    Not trying to fan the fires of this thread but this post made me laugh a bit. Back in I think it was 97-98 I cannot recall I played a mud, aka text based no graphics, and this game had seasonal things come in to play (much like our add on store) and you either had the in game gold to buy it or not, so things became rare, there was also mentoring in the game and it was skill based, so higher level skilled players could get more resources than lower but could also teach, higher level resources meant well more money for the fairs etc.

    My gf at the time and I decided we were playing WAY TOO MUCH, and said lets sell our stuff, have a nice dinner and move on with our lives. We contacted folks in game, got their email addresses, and sent out a list of the things we were selling from a text based only game we had been playing for perhaps 1 to 1.5 years and hoped to get 50 bucks.

    We got checks in the mail, western union transfers, cash in envelopes, checks we waited to clear all from players trusting our names to deliver 'air' as I called it in the in game items. This marketplace has of course evolved but we were so overwhelmed in the in game auctions we held via email, it was amazing. Now I am not saying we started RMT, but it bought us several new pc's, and several lobster dinners and many more things. (over 5k in 97/98 from a expected 50 dollar return OMG) .. we hadn't even sold all our stuff at all and netted many more thousands in auctions we hosted in later years and needless to say kept playing to keep making 'found' money.

    So if you come to wonder why me who gives away tons of stuff also supports those selling their services, this story above is why. Who am I to judge when I was doing it decades ago lol. I don't really sell services anymore, but certainly won't step on the neck of those that do because I get it.

    Hope yall don't think lesser of me.
     
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  5. Cordelayne

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    Absolutely NOT possible Lace! :D
     
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  6. Solazur

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    ditto
    @Lace you're a gem.. and if anybody thinks less of you.. it's their loss
     
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  7. Nib

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    You just went full keyboard warrior... never go full keyboard warrior. You make legal claims about ToS that are completely untrue. You seem to be one of those people who grant themselves "rights" that do not exist. Again read the ToS and understand THEY own it all, you just paid for access. They can change ToS at anytime if they choose to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  8. Cordelayne

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    Looks like you and @Budner both need another lesson in internet law jurisprudence. ;)

    Allow me to remind you both of Douglas v. Talk America. The decision, as passed down by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, stipulated how web site operators handle changes made to user agreements, regardless of what the user originally agreed to.

    The Ninth Circuit Court stated that it was not reasonable to expect Douglas to check the company's web site every day just to see if the terms of service had changed. "Parties to a contract have no obligation to check the terms on a periodic basis to learn whether they have been changed by the other side," wrote judge Callahan. "Indeed, a party can't unilaterally change the terms of a contract; it must obtain the other party's consent before doing so... This is because a revised contract is merely an offer and does not bind the parties until accepted."

    Ergo, Portalarium cannot change the initial terms of service without the consent of a customer. This is more commonly seen after updating software. Sometimes, like in the aforementioned example, a company will have you e-sign a new EULA agreement after a patch or an update.

    Damn I'm good at this lawyer thing...I'm like Cousin Vinny! :D
     
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  9. Nib

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    Negative, when they change ToS you are given the option to agree or not. If you do not agree to the new ToS you no longer have access, because they own it.
     
  10. StrangerDiamond

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    This thread did indeed go all hyperbolic... I guess its my fault.

    All I can say is that there is rmt and RMT®.

    Generalizing and putting players into categories has never served us well, but this time its a redemption for many.

    What you describe is perfectly fine, its player to player, remains within reasonable limits and is sporadic.

    But lets use an example that already exists :

    Say you are someone with ALOT of money, you go to a poor country, buy a building, fill it with computers and kids of various ages and pay them sure, a better salary than they would get anywhere else where they live sure, but a salary that allow you to make 1000% profit on your investment. They farm your gold, your artifacts, your ressources, they level your players, you sit back and watch money pile up and laugh machiavelously.

    I'm not accusing anyone here because we aren't popular enough to have much of this at all... still.

    You'll probably think this isn't ethical at all, right ?

    How does the game propose to help me identify what is virtuous, if I cannot identify what is in the meta-game ?

    I thought the oracle had eyes everywhere, will it allow unreasonable amounts of resources to pass from a "slave" account to a "master" account ?

    So many questions that leave a bitter taste... how do we propose to regulate and limit this trade is what interests me.
     
  11. StrangerDiamond

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    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Thats exactly why some of us are so defensive and on edge...
     
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  12. Cordelayne

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    Incorrect sir! Given the emphasis placed on a user’s assent, courts favor finding a binding agreement where the user engages in affirmative conduct acknowledging the terms of a TOS. For instance, a genuine clickwrap agreement, in which a service provider places a TOS just adjacent to or below a click-button (or check-box) has been held to be sufficient in a court of law to indicate the user agreed to the listed terms.

    In these cases, requiring the user to click “I Agree,” after calling attention to the terms and affording the user an opportunity to review them, demonstrates the user agreed to the terms. However, courts generally do not require that you actually have read the terms, but just that you had reasonable notice and an opportunity to read them.

    In other words, it’s not merely clicking the “I Agree” button that creates the legal contract. The issue turns on reasonable notice and opportunity to review—whether the placement of the terms and click-button afforded the user a reasonable opportunity to find and read the terms without much effort. In practice, the enforceability of each TOS implementation often falls on a sliding scale, depending on the degree of notice it provides the user- as outlined in Douglas v. Talk America

    Hope that helped clear things up for ya! ;)
     
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  13. Nib

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    Dude just stop, you are clearly just trolling. Port owns the game we agree to ToS for access. It is cut and dry.
     
  14. Cordelayne

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    Lol I wasn't trolling, just practicing for the Bar exam:rolleyes:
     
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  15. redfish

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    The two yutes!
     
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  16. StrangerDiamond

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    even if you're technically right its still Terms of Service and not Terms of Rental or Ownership... :p
     
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  17. Samgbre

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    I'm wondering if you purposely decided to describe how some GS businesses actually work - or were working (I have stopped keeping up with their methods of choice for quite a while now, please feel free to point out my mistake(s), if any).

    On a more personal note, I can understand the frustration about RMT. Either due to a matter of resources (another case, more common, is someone with both a very limited amount of free time, and a very limited amount of cash to spend on a game), or due to other considerations (a matter of principle, for example, the need to build up an ideal world where one can be shielded from real life struggles).

    I can not approve of it, though... 'Cause after all, no one's pointing a gun at anyone's head to force them to continue playing this game - or any game in particular.

    Freewill, guys. Freewill, and open-mindedness.

    Loved your point, though. As much as I loved @Lace's and @Cordelayne's points.

    [Edit: Learned to use 'Profile Linking'. \o/]
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  18. Andartianna

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    Why are we talking about ethics?
    There are no real ethics in capitalism. There is what is legal and what is not. All things that are legal are ethical. All things that are not legal are not ethical. One's opinion on personal ethics does not really apply to business ethics (even if it would be nice if some of them did). So in your example the only thing to ask is is this legal or not. Then you can answer if it's ethical.
     
  19. StrangerDiamond

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    It works simply because people band up in guilds :) in all the guilds I ever played in we had players from around the world in different time zones and we just left a RP note when we did a roleplay action that was to be deferred because of a missing participant. This is very technical tho you have to understand that in this context (before RMT and big PK wars that ensued) we were friends with enemy guilds, we would "fill up the blanks" when people went on vacation. The guild or community is part of the equation you are missing... it did work for a long time.

    there were miners, blacksmiths, guarded escorts, rangers... all part of a network and one man's garbage was another man's treasure.

    See ? if the environment is made to feed itself and itself only, everything else becomes roleplay. When I find a rare component for a unique dye I can run to town and be proud of my achievement, as it is right now I come back to town and everyone says, yeah I know I bought it for cheap on the walmart store next corner.

    The blacksmith who people "trust" because he built a name gets escorts in exchange of armors, the miners gets an escort from the blacksmith for some ressources.

    Remember ?

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Cordelayne

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    Finally someone got it! :D
     
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