A few words about PVP...

Haha, you will surely win

Man i see your point but without risk there will be no risk to persecute and troll someone indefinitely.
You kill him then he'll come back since he doesn't lose anything and prevent you from farming/gathering for example.
And blocking pvp is last thing we need, it's already blocked enough, even pvpers after killing someone unflag then just flag again when is best time to strike.

We don't want to force non-pvpers to pvp but make pvpers pvp since atm they're penalized for pvp (less resources, less igg per hour, less xp and no pvp releated drops and contents).
What we need are pvp releated reasons to fight.
Would you go to pve if you don't get loots/xp/resources releated to pve?

 

WAIT WAIT WAIT. So, you want more reasons to pvp, so that more people pvp, but you dont want a person to be able to come and try and pvp you over and over? I thought that is what you wanted is to have players to kill? That person may not lose anything but you will have players to kill. And there is a real simple solution if someone is griefing you like this and you want it to stop, you unflag.

You are not penalized for pvp, you can go to the same zones pvp flagged and do the same thing the others are doing and maintain your pvp flagged status if that is what you want.

Now a pve player who wants to maintain there non flagged status cannot go to any area, cannot go to get any of the items I mentioned for themselves.

Now who is the one penalized for their playstyle here?

How did this get so backwards?

 

This. This is the problem. PvPers aren't satisfied with having "their PvP" among themselves not bothering anyone, they want victims. Forcing people to participate is always going to cause an argument. Instead I feel that efforts should be made toward making the PvP experience satisfying so that people will WANT to participate. Any change to the system that just brings more "unwilling participants" into harm's way is going to have lot of backlash and ultimately, not solve the problem.

If you are a PvPer (note: NOT a griefer), then a consensual system with good rewards, progression, etc. should appeal to you. There is no reason to drag other people into it unless you want "prey" - and well, people don't want to be "prey" since there's no upside to it, so this will never get anywhere.

I reject the arguments for "open season on people going about their business" and reject any suggestion that tries to encourage people to invite harassment, because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

No one is begrudging the PvPers their fun - among themselves - you can already flag up and do that anywhere, and have a dozen dedicated scenes that PvErs can't go to without putting up with it. If you want more rewards for doing what you think is fun - fine - as long as those rewards aren't beneficial outside of the PvP space. That is why we need meaningful PvP implementation, factions, objectives, zone control, guild war, whatever - to give people more PvP options other than "gank or be ganked."

 

Wait wait wait, you missed the point again as usual, not sure if is intentional or you just ignore part of what i write.
We don't want ppl to kill, we want to fight for something meaningful for us pvpers. Someone who spam confusion, torpid and ice field on you while you're killing dragon is trolling, far away from pvp and fighting.

Not at home now, long answer will come soon.

 

That is completely wrong. Everyone can enter such scenes, no-one is blocked. Personally i know PvE'ers doing their adventuring and gathering there.
As God (the lord) has said, don't live in fear. Such PvE'er don't do it and enjoy all scenes the game provides.
Even my wife walks into PvP scenes, doing her quests or gather some resources. She is not PvP minded. (Don't like to go onto other players)

In scenes that are unprotected by the oracle, there is also higher risk. The higher risk = higher reward rule can compensate this. That exactly means that the PvE play style should also be (more) rewarded within PvP scenes as in PvE scenes. The reward for being in oracle-protected areas is untouchability plus the option to steal other people mobs (well this can also be done in PvP scenes).
So, no-one stops a PvE to be a PvE in PvP areas.

 

Firstly I think full loot PvP will not provide anyone with what they actually want, "meaningful PvP". Below is what I would like to see, it's an opinion of what I think would work for everyone with the slightest it of interest in PvP and perhaps for some who wouldn't normally.

I'd set up faction/alliance/virtue wars or whatever you want to call them maybe based of the virtues, so perhaps 3 factions, Love, Courage, Truth for example. They would occur only in the PvP zones. Guilds would be randomly split between the factions initially and then they could move about for a cost (see further down). New guilds would be automatically allocated to the lowest rank Virtue.

There would be no looting and max group sizes of X in a party. This would all take place in the current PvP zones or perhaps some new zones and each zone would have maybe 2-3 minor control points and 1 main control point. Guilds could take control of these points and the alliance with the most control points would be the alliance with access to a special scene or dungeon or whatever with improved rewards of some description, maybe Coto drops for example.

On top of these scenes there would be similar scenes limited by levels, 0-40, 41-60, 61-80, 81-100, 101+ allowing people to hone their skills and have fun almost immediately without just getting ganked.

Each kill would provide a certain number of kill/reward points for both the guild and the player who did the killing.
The guild reward points could be spent on different types of guards/traps/defences for the control points they owned
The players reward points would be spent on new unique to PvP skills, this would involve another skill tree with 5 types of skills, Melee/Magic/Defensive buffs/Aggressive Buffs/general buffs and each would have 10 tiers getting more progressively expensive for each one in each direction. These skills would be Glyphs as normal that can be trained but would also all combo with existing skills for Melee and magic to give a real boost to the attacks. Some could be used in PvE where it causes balance issues they could not be used in PvE.
This would give a PvP level with the points and could also follow up with titles etc.

I believe the above very roughly thrown down idea would encourage people to PvP and provide a system of reward for PvP'rs. and yes it is basically ripped off from elsewhere (sort of)

 

Actually, the PvP flag stops them. That's the point.
No one's suggesting that a PvE minded player can't physically enter a scene, but they CANT enter the scene without flagging up.
If there was a way to do this, we would not even be having this discussion.

So unless they invite interference and harassment, then no, they can't enter these scenes and do any PvE related content in them.

This is not a "risk vs. reward scenario" and I laugh everytime someone says it is.
Its not "risk" when you're a non-pvp built player going about your business and someone comes and one-shots you.
You're basically saying, you can go to these scene and do this quest or get this stuff but if there is a bored player out there with nothing better to do than come antagonize players for no reason other than the game allows them to, then you're going to end up having to PAY THEM for the privledge of being their target? How can anyone think this is ok?

There are honorable pvpers out there who frown on this behavior. I think those people deserve a good, meaningful pvp system. But we have to get away from this whole "we need victims" thing.
Killing a non-combatant who is just doing their own thing - should not be rewarded or encouraged.
How satisfying is it anyway, to kill someone who can't fight back? I don't think that's what most people want, when they say they want PvP.

Lets get away from this "how can we force people who dont want to PvP to be our victims" and come up with a system that can be implemented without further polarization.

 

Last 3 times I was in blood bay, I ran all around the place for hours without seeing a single player. I sometimes wonder if perhaps these issues raised on the forums are more ideological in nature and don't actually exist in the game as it is.

 

Now I'm really confused. So you dont want to kill people, which is what pvp is, players killing players. You want something meaningful for pvp that does no involve killing players? I mean, if you just have something meaningful for pvp, but then dont pvp, what was the point? At least be honest and admit you DO want to kill people. Your actions speak WAY louder then your words. If anyone says,"hey, there is a pvp flagged guy here" you go and try and kill them right? I have seen you do this before as I have seen others do it too. Thats perfectly fine, thats what pvp is, and that other person whos flagged should know what they did when they flagged and what that means. As for the other player griefing you, as I said before, really simple solution, unflag.

The suggestions of pvp items, titles, skills , points and all those type of suggestions of rewards for pvp that are pvp oriented and the pve players could not care less about as they already give 0 ****s about it, well, I have been saying this for 2 years now. Its a way to entice people into pvp who are players who want to try and pvp. One of the biggest things holding some of these players back is the ransom system, they are afraid to lose gear or coin for trying. Second would be the ones who dont feel they are high enough level yet. You can even see that said by a couple people in this thread.

Yep, and people in wheelchairs dont need ramps, they can climb up those stairs pulling their chair behind them. In fact, lets use this as an analogy. You can have A. stairs that a majority of people can use easily, and some that cannot. Or B. a ramp that everyone can use easily. Now you can vote for A. or B. Sure you can vote for A and say, hey they can drag the chair up or you can vote for b and everyone wins.

 

LOL... My now one and only house is in Blood Bay. I decided the day it became available that I would move in and live there. On that release day I was fortunate to grab the first plot they made available, yes... House #1. I wanted excitement. I wanted the game to have life and spice it up.

What a total joke! It's a ghost town. Portalarium gave up on it and it is just another incomplete task on a list of many incomplete tasks and systems.

 

Wrong again and this shows that all your thinking from the first answer is totally wrong.
PVP is players vs players, this means players fighting players or better players competing vs players or players comparing their skills to other players. I don't want to kill ppl randomly without a meaning, i organize daily pvp vs HOM and Shadow people to fight higher level ppl in game and compare myself and my skill with skill of other players not cause i have fun killing people.

I'd be a liar idiot admiting that all i want is killing players, is like saying to a UFC figher "you have to be honest and admit you want to beat and hurt people".

There is no low level in pvp after level 70, i played a lot with my level 62 char killing many expert pvpers level 100+, i started to pvp at level 70 with my character, are you low level? use strategy! are you not good at playing? use levels.

This is the misinformation that people have in mind, PVP is murdering and griefing, this is a huge lie, it would be like any kind of fighter, sportsmen, soldiers, etc that they just want to murder or hurt people.

You really think all ppl who fought here were here to kill and grief?



Were you there to grief and kill?

Imho you really should have to get yourself an examination of conscience, and stop this senseless absurd battle based on semantics and fallacies of the language, the situation is becoming ridiculous.
I'm sorry Mac, but you're not adding anything constructive except by turning a healthy discussion into the usual flame thread, I suggest using the forum's private chat or discord if we want to continue.

 

I'm playing UO Outlands which is a heavily modified version of UO before T2A with a custom map and all. I do have a Red character and the goal of that character is hunting blues in dungeons to steal from them. To me they are loot.

At the same time I play mainly with Blue characters but I tell you what, when someone acts like a fool I will take the hit and kill them (or at least try). For example, when I'm in the dungeon and they draw aggro to me and try to get me killed. Or if they step in to try and steal a kill I'm working on them. I love having the ability to turn around and throw down.

Do I kill Miners? Yep, but not often.

Do I kill Noobs? Yep, just for fun but 99% of the time I rez them and give them their stuff back. Just the other day I put one hit on a noob and took him down to 5hp. He actually said "Ouch" and we both laughed. I healed him up and we parted ways. I had picked up some armor in one of the dungeons and on my way home I saw him again. I drop the armor of the ground for him and he thanked me.

Am I a "griefer"? No. Are there griefers, yes. The world is big and most of the time I move on when there are and I can't handle them. Life is rough, it's not meant to be safe/easy.

 

I was not there to grief, but I was there to kill people, thats how its won or lost, killing people. I am pretty dam sure the others were there to kill people too, seeings how thats what everyone was doing. If they didnt want to, they would not do it. So when you go to these others and pvp with them, you dont kill them? What is the point of testing, practicing and getting better at pvp if you do not want to pvp? I will openly admit, when I go pvping, I want to kill people. I love the thrill of a fight, the satisfaction of the kill, the even more satisfaction of revenge on someone who killed me before. I am not there for your randsom, I am not pvping to kill dragons, I am there to kill people or complete objectives that involves killing people.

Now you use the analogy of a ufc fighter and how they do not want to hurt each other. Now, if they REALLY did not want to hurt people, they would not be a ufc fighter. If you take that job you MUST accept you are going to have to hurt people, thats how you win. Now many of the fighters are not trying to permanently injure the other person while still trying to win. BUT, there are ufc fighters the really do just want to hurt others, its what they like to do. You can tell when they do an arm bar. A person that just wants the win, will get the arm bar,then look at their opponent giving them the chance to tap out, others dont look just start torquing it as much as possible. Just like there are 3 types of soldiers. Some are there for a paycheck, some are there for patriotism, and some are there because they really do want to kill people legally and get away with it. Those who are REALLY not wanting to harm/kill others chose to serve time in jail instead of being a soldier, like the amish did during the draft.

I am not saying your one of the sadistic people that really wants to hurt people, or grief people in game. You do want to pvp vs players and win though right, and that involves killing them right? Do you see what im saying? If you REALLY did not want to kill people, you would not even be a pvper, you would never flag, and that way you would never have to worry about doing something you dont want to do.

 

Do you really think so? You think that's valuable? In two months and 1000 + dragons, I have not received a single green head and only one white head. I can't sell the white one for months. During those two months my friends and I killed 1000+ spider Queens and got quite a lot of belts and staves. Belts are sold very quickly. Tell me, why would I kill dragons at the risk of being killed? So maybe someday I'll get a dragon head and maybe someday I can sell it?
I want that in PVP there were at least the same valuable things, as in PVE. Why aren't you interested in PVP? But Yes, I want the most valuable things to come at risk. I want to gather a lot of my friends and go hunting where PVP players will protect PVE players while those kill the boss. I want this! So it was in my favorite UO when we went to kill the champion PVP players with PVE players!

 

Look, you said there was NOTHING of value that is only pvp zones, I pointed out things that are. I never said high drop rate, I never said its more lucrative then other areas. I was just correcting your statement of nothing with the proper things that area really there. If you want to avoid this in the future, be honest, be descriptive and dont leave stuff out. The reason people leave stuff out or embellish things to the e nth degree is to try and make their argument more valid. Its very easy to make your argument just as valid without leaving stuff out or embellishment, its takes more words and more thought. Might even make your argument hold more water if you include all the variables and stuff as people might be more willing to listen if they think you know what you are talking about.

 

As times in your message water and there is no arguments. How much You sold the heads of the dragon? How long you've been in PVP zones? You're saying: people are selling? Who are these people, how much per month are selling? Valuable to who? The green dragon's head is valuable to several people. Belt has value almost for any player. I sell them. I know what I'm talking about. I gave you arguments, my statistics, and the fact that these things you're talking about can't be sold.

 

Though as others have said, this is a game. It's not life. It's escapism. I already deal with piles of human BS in real life, without visiting a virtual world to faceplant into more.

If that is my desire, I already have a game for that. A big draw of SOTA for me, was the consensual PVP. It's foundational for why I play. I also wouldn't expect that if I start playing Stardew Valley, to suddenly have it patched one day where Goonswarm is burning down my property. I'd stop playing.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to make some plans for Burn Jita.

 

Where I wrote "NOTHING of value that is only pvp zones," ?
I wrote "There's no reason to go to PVP except for fun. You need to collect very good equipment, make a special build. What for? No rewards for PVP. There are no locations for farming something unusual and valuable. There are no ratings or tournaments. There is no motivation."
see context. I did not write that there are no such things. I wrote that there are no locations for farming and no motivation.

 

You can sell a green dragon head right now to kimberlin for 300k, he was just asking a few hours ago in discord. As for what you said here, The fall is a location to farm something unusual and valuable. Or the grunvald shardfall for the green dragon head.

Had you said right away " there is only a few things that are only pvp zone specific, and do not compare to what can be earned in non pvp areas" or said " the only tournaments lately as player made, same with the ranking bot" then I would have no leg to stand on, no arguments to be made cuz this is truth. You said no though, as in none. This is not true, and now I can make an argument against it by pointing out what you left out. Do you see what I am getting at? I am not trying to attack you, I am just stating the truth by putting in what you left out.

 

Again, if there was a way to win a fight when the target has 1 hp i would take it, as i already said is not killing is winning or losing.
This is a game and i don't want to measure my skill against AI if not in Dark Souls where bosses and mobs can play almost as good as the players, so the only way to test my skills is fighting others.

I can propose a review of what you just said changing it according to my opinion:

"I will openly admit, when I go pvping, I want to compete with people. I love the thrill of a fight, the satisfaction of winning, the even more satisfaction of compare again my skills on someone who won vs me before. I am not there for your ransom, I am not pvping to kill dragons, I am there to compete with people or complete objectives that involves fight people if only there were. "

I know many MMA fighters and my thoughts are very similar to them if not for a single fighter that loves to beat others.
About soldiers take me as the one that do it for patriotism and paycheck not for killing legally.

These are false arguments, I played wow for years and at the end of any duel the loser surrenders and is not killed, trust me i spent 90% of my time there dueling outside orgrimmar.

You forget that we are not all native English and that we try to express ourselves to the best of our ability, try to make your arguments valid pointing semantic fallacies and lack of deep language it's just unfair, I've been victim of this for months on both discord and the forum. What would you say instead of understanding our point of view and respond directly to that?
would not it make the discussion more healthy?

We are not here to learn to write beautiful sentences in English, but to represent a large part of the population of Sota that can not speak for itself because of the different language.

I find that this behavior continues to divert the context and bring flame to this thread.
I am writing you a pm to try to be more explanatory.