Can we JUMP? (Dev) Replied

The solution is to unfriend those people, or ignore them. Everyone wins!

Combat in a non-sieged town? Sure. As soon as you enter combat, stamina is an issue.

 

Okay, but why not just have horses for getting around and keep the stamina limits w/o a horse?

 

I'm not against horses, but not everyone will have horses, and if people jumping around ticks you off, imagine people walking up to shopkeepers while still on their horse.

The idea is one of game design. The reason for encumbrance or stamina is to diversify characters and character types. Tell people the pluses and minuses for picking certain skills, and let them work around that. Most of this relevant for what the player experiences while out in the wild, either exploring or fighting or whatever. You jump, jump, jump, and then you have to wait to rest. Meanwhile, you might be attacked or in danger of some other peril. You have to decide if lower stamina is OK, and allow yourself to jump, or decide that it's not and solve your issue in another way. Can you get to a safe place to rest?

Inside a city, however, I'm going to jump, jump, jump, and if I run out of stamina, I'm going to wait. I'll have to either sit there, or walk around the object. There won't be any danger, so I'm just waiting, or walking. Once or twice isn't a problem. Over and over and over again while going from one side of the town to the other and it becomes tedious.

The idea is this: Don't put limitations on your players for the sake of having limitations. If the limitation means nothing in the long run, then remove it and let the players focus something else, something fun.

 

Nobody likes limitations, but removing them entirely, rather than providing ways around them, usually means removing a feeling of depth from the game. So, for instance, imo fast travel, like in Elder Scrolls, ruins the game. For fast travel -- not just from an immersion and realism standpoint, but you're suddenly missing out on potential encounters and events on the way, and you're no longer enjoying the environment. For movement in the city, well I hope the same reasons. Besides immersion and realism, I hope there's a lot of life in the city, I hope there are reasons to go through the city slowly, to get you to pay attention to things.

I agree there should be ways to get around town fast, but I see no problem with offering a way around limitations rather than getting rid of them entirely. Horses are one possible means. Magic (speed spells, blink spells, etc) another possible means. That will make getting a horse or some magic spell a reward, and make it feel valuable and an achievement for the player.

 

I have read quite a few of the comments about jumping and I personally think it should be in.

I do find those jumping fools annoying, but in the alpha I ran into this one rock wall that was less than the height of a step, so I tried jumping over it to find I couldn't jump. I was able to just walk around it, but wondered why I had to waste the time as it was so small. Kind of made me think I was in a Monty Python skit.

Please, please no jumping puzzles though. They drive me nuts. Mostly I just want to be able to get over ridiculously small things that are blocking me. I don't want it to happen automatically though because there are cases where I don't want to be hopping back and forth over something.

Having it take some stamina might be a good idea, or maybe just a jump timer. You have to wait so long between jumps, so you don't becoming a jumping fool. Maybe so many jumps with-in a time span so you can be hopping mad.

I too believe that not having jumping feels like a regression, but it should be more for hopping over little things and also cosmetic. Who doesn't want to be hopping mad?

 

It's not that you're removing the limitations for no reason. Take the limitation for what it was designed to do. In this case, stamina is a part of a plus/minus with regards to character skill choices. Now, as I said before, look at where it has an effect on gameplay and game choices. The hard decisions will mostly be out in the wild, either exploring or in combat. What you choose, both in how you made your character and how you deal with their limitations, have an effect on how you solve the problem, what kinds of rewards you get, and how much enjoyment you take from that.

In the city, however, there aren't any hard choices because there are no major repercussions. If you run out of stamina, you wait or take the long way. Either way, there is no scenario challenge to overcome, no danger from waiting. Therefore, it would suggest that you remove the limitation in that situation, which would reduce any frustration or downtime. If there is no benefit to the limitation (adding a challenge in this case) then just remove it in this situation.

Sid Meier said that a game is a series of meaningful choices. Nothing is meaningful in having stamina in a safe area. In the end, you've lost time and gained a sense of restriction without a reward.

 

+1 for jumping

I was really dismayed in release 1 anytime I approached a small obstacle or change in elevation and had it impede my movement. Rocks no higher then my ankles were stopping my progression and I had no way other then going around to overcome these obstacles. Changes in elevation would stop my avatar from going either up or down. Combined these things made the game feel very restrictive. With todays game advancements this is unacceptable.

 

It wouldn't remove meaningful choices. Do I spend my money on a horse, or on a sword? Choices in a game don't necessarily mean dealing with danger. My feeling is too many people center games around things like combat and competition, and everything else gets reduced and minimized. Sid Meier's Civilization, by the way, is sometimes an example of that -- because the game has been too focused on war in the past; and building things for the sake of being ready for war. Something like SimCity is an alternate model, where you build things for the joy of building things. This goes with Will Wright's view of gaming -- he didn't call his games "games" at all, he called them "software toys," and preferred to look at games as types of sandboxes where people could play around.

The same kind of combat/competition focus enters RPGs a lot, and it annoys me. People want crafting because they want items, and they want items so they can be better at combat. The more combat and competition is blown up, the more role-playing is minimized, and the more playing the game for the sake of the joy of being a character in the world is reduced.

 

I don't know why you're stuck on a horse being a solution for too much jumping. It's like trying to patch the problem instead of just removing it.

I like horses. I want horses. They aren't the way to solve this problem.

 

Because I don't see the limitations as a problem.

 

I've explained it a couple times above, if you want to re-read it. Here's the TL;DR version. A limitation with no purpose should be removed.

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So let's allow unlimited inventory space, since there's no point to limiting inventory space and it frustrates players.

 

This is an absurd statement.

Limited inventory space is indeed a necessary limitation. It forces you to return to locations that may be unsafe and choose what you want to bring back.

If you remember my previous posts, I didn't say remove stamina from all jumping, only in places where it doesn't matter. Like cities.

 

Generally in games it means going back to a dungeon you've already cleared, and getting everything you want doesn't mean inviting danger, it just means going back and forth between a cleared area and the bank. It also means frequent visits to the bank to switch items. Many players find this tedious... that's why they fast travel.

And, if you've been reading the forums, there have been people supporting the argument that gold should be weightless and take no inventory space. They don't want to stash their gold in the bank and some probably don't want to stash their loot in the bank. So you might think that's an absurd statement, but there are people who would support the idea.

I know you aren't saying removing stamina from everything. I'm just giving my personal point of view on this... personally, I don't find these limitations a problem, and think they add to the game.

 

Who is to say that you can go back to a cleared area in SotA? We don't know how that is going to work. Regardless, if you remove the inventory limit so people don't have to go to the wilderness over and over again, then you've effectively changed the game. There is no chance for a special encounter of another hex, a special boss or even just another player. Fast travel is fine, because there is still chance of an encounter at the destination, and in many ways, it's a reward for advancing along in that magical field or bought a device to do it.

Regarding gold having no weight; I don't care much either way. If it has no weight, people might carry stacks of it, but the risk of losing it will probably mitigate that somewhat. If it does have weight, then people will have to decide how much to carry. Eventually though, it will become a problem when item prices go too high. Will you be able to carry what you need to make that purchase and still carry your other adventuring items? Then we get checks or some other way to take gold and turn it into something without as much or any weight. It's a wash at at that point, so what is easier to implement and has the least burden on players? Probably weightless gold.

You still haven't explained why having jumping reduce stamina in a non-combat, non-risky situation adds to the game.

 

I'm undecided on jumping personally, but a few friends of mine really wants it. However, at the very least I want to be able to fall down places, such as from the wall surrounding the inner parts of Owl's Head. It just seems a bit silly to me to have an invisible wall covering stairways and other open spaces you walk on, preventing you from falling down.

 

Same things I believe limited inventory brings to the game even in the case that there's no real danger in returning to areas you've been, and its really just a matter of inconvenience. It helps structure the game world.

So for instance, it could influence motivations; an NPC asks you to go across the city for him to talk to someone, and when you get to the other side, the person there asks you to go back; and both are aware that its a long distance and pay you for doing this for them. There might also be interesting things going on between point A and point B. I also see the choice to use some alternative means of travel to get yourself somewhere faster as a meaningful choice. What would horses do in the game, move you even faster than running? I'm also not sure where you're going to predict to turn the stamina meter off and on and let the player know. Its not only combat.. what if a thief steals something from you and you want to catch them? Does thievery mode turn stamina mode on? What if someone doesn't steal from you, but they taunt you and you want to catch the person taunting you? All in all, it just doesn't make the game too "gamey," it makes it feel like a real world and opens up possibilities.

I just personally value the role-playing aspects and, possibly gameplay aspects, that these small limitations can bring into the picture.

Of course, I've realized different people like different types of games, and things I don't find tedious, other people might.

 

We're gonna have to disagree on this too. Hexes will be replenished, and they won't remain safe for long, if at all, after you leave it.

If an NPC is paying me to go back and forth, then it doesn't really affect anyone else. No one would care if I jumped the whole way. If you are designing an in-city mission and you want to be sure that the player is going to take a certain path, you design for that. You send them through a choke point with no alternatives or otherwise block them off. An alternative means of travel, like a horse would definitely serve the person, but doesn't solve the problem for everyone.

I hope so, otherwise, why bother getting them? It's also possible that their in-scenario speed is limited and they're more of an overworld advantage.

It's easy to know when and where to turn them off. There is almost certainly an existing flag for scenarios that determine if it's a safe zone or not. That's what you use to determine when to turn off the drain upon jumping. If you are going to have stamina, there should be a stamina bar somewhere so players can make adequate decisions based on what they have in reserve. If it's turned off, you don't lose any. Easy for the player to pick up on, if they even notice.

If a thief steals from you, then you are likely not in a safe zone. This is probably hand-in-hand with whether PvP is allowed in cities or not. Based on what I can remember, it won't be so stealing is not an issue. If they taunt you, well, what are you going to do if you catch them? You're in a safe zone, so the best you'll be able to do is stick your tongue out at them.

I'm all for role play. A lot of people love it. But I'm not advocating adding a restriction, I'm saying remove it where it doesn't matter, where it doesn't affect meaningful gameplay

 

Who says its a PC? An NPC can steal from you or taunt you. An NPC could also purposely make you do something tedious. I remember in U6 you had to go back and forth between two people who wouldn't talk before resolving the situation.

The way I would do horses is they could go at a persons running pace, more or less, without getting tired, and then could go at a sprinting pace but get tired at the same speed that a person gets tired running. They would also obviously handle more weight.

 

With tears of join, I'm happy to say that the Devs have moved forward to include jumping in R2!! Great job to everyone that discussed the issue, pros and cons. I'm sure they will take all this into consideration and execute it well. *cheers*