DarkStarr please consider making a policy before/when launching "the Vault" 25APR

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spoon, Apr 8, 2019.

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What do you think? (multi choice)

Poll closed Apr 29, 2019.
  1. Portalarium needs an Official Rarity Policy

    52.2%
  2. Portalarium does not need an Official Rarity Policy

    8.8%
  3. Portalarium needs a Reserved list of things that never will be sold again

    49.3%
  4. Portalarium does not need a Reserved list of things that never will be sold again

    10.3%
  5. I think the Vault is a great idea, I will definitely buy expired stuff if it comes back

    30.1%
  6. I think the Vault is a bad idea, I will definitely need torches and pitchforks

    28.7%
  7. Arrghh, my valuable collection...... Nooooooooo.....

    16.2%
  8. There is no Spoon

    17.6%
  9. Portalarium please listen to Spoon, Save the Whales

    16.2%
  10. Portalarium please ignore Spoon, make corsets for the crown store

    9.6%
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  1. Steevodeevo

    Steevodeevo Avatar

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    Totally agree with this. @DarkStarr 's idea is sound but it is not enough just for a random txt message in a pop up, make it visually / graphically different in some way, especially when we get linked item graphics in chat for sales, we want to SEE the difference.
     
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  2. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    You guys realize that putting a Gold virtue symbol on the Cavaliers hat makes it better than the original, right?
     
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  3. Jekyll

    Jekyll Avatar

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    Tooltips would be the logical attention to detail needed, but would it be nicer to have an "original" tooltip as opposed to a "vault item" tooltip?

    Now featuring Speed-Tips (a la speedtrees).
     
  4. Arcanoxer

    Arcanoxer Avatar

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    Replica would be a fitting term for the re-realesd Vault items.
    But i still don't like the Vault idea at all, thats some shady business.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  5. Rook Strife

    Rook Strife Avatar

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    Here is a better idea

    How about making some rares and actually keeping them rare this time.

    100 % guarantee in bold letters these items will never be sold again and keep your word on it.

    How hard is it? lol

    You got years of experience now and should be able to determine which items you can sell that will not pose a future problem.


    People like to collect these things, like having items of rarity and will pay money for them.

    Simple
     
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  6. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    The problem is they expired all the homes. /facepalm
     
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  7. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

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    Fund an economist to fix the SOTA market.

    There is a literal gold mine in SOTA property if the Developers were willing and capable to implement such a system.

    Reselling "expired rares" is just a race to the bottom.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  8. Elwyn

    Elwyn Avatar

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    I think it's more that at current staffing levels, even the awesomeness of Scottie can only produce so many items per month.

    I have no problems with an obvious re-skin of expired items. I don't think the underlying 3D models should be permanently exclusive. Actually, back in the day it seemed to me that was the plan, one crafted/dropped, one on the store.

    A policy and a list seems like a good plan. Those of us who have been around a while should get some consideration for holding on to stuff for so long waiting for a player base to happen. I also understand that there should be a difference between exclusive and expired as part of a bundle. This goes back to people thinking CFVs were supposed to be exclusive. It wasn't a good idea to wait so long to have them available individually, as it gave too many people the wrong idea.

    This is exactly what a list of which specific items are exclusive and how they are exclusive would be useful. Never again, once a year, just the whole bundle as a set is exclusive, etc. If an item is not in the list it's not exclusive. (If it was neglected it should be added when pointed out. You know people will take the time to check it.) But it would be polite if any item no longer available that previously appeared on the store or in a bundle or pledge would be in the list.

    And I'd like to see a visible increase in players before they go bringing back a bunch of old items. It just seems like a cart before the horse thing to me. Give new people at least a little bit of time to desire some of these things first.

    The one thing I am definitely okay with is "vault" items being available for a limited time when they do return. It seems like this is the plan.

    And... why is this suddenly a problem now, a week and a half after the announcement? Why wasn't it important a week ago? What happened?

    They've been working on those, even if it's slower than you would like.

    That makes me think of the (copy) versions of the Virtue books.
     
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  9. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I don't think a Virtue symbol is the right choice for this. Perhaps a button in the shape of a Crown coin? Similar to the amulets the Crown merchants were wearing for a while.

    The virtue symbol should be reserved for specific rewards. Its on the telethon rewards (except DarkStarr's), release hats, and few others. It doesn't belong on store-bought items.

    Otherwise, I agree that distinguishing these objects by an easy-to-apply texture would be ideal, beyond just a simple tooltip.
     
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  10. Brass Knuckles

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    @Elwyn yea I agree with that, pretty much if their logic was that it would bring in or retain new players I’ll be on board with it. This game is very stagnant and lately I’d say a diminishing player base.

    If reselling everything and I’ll Include pledge items for the sake of this argument increases the player base sign me up.

    I was just throwing that out there a coin or any symbol would do.
     
  11. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    It also may be a long term route to bankruptcy. This isn't UO where maintaining an item is as simply as a 2D pixel picture.
    The more items they have in game that no longer generate income, the more future dev time they fund (without funding) fixing those item through Unity/shaders or whatever upgrades.

    I seem to remember you played Eve, Greyfox. It was the reason CCP did tiericide, when they upgraded there graphics engine the first time they realised they where maintaining huge amount of graphics assets that no one used or used in the first 1 month of play and never used again and were just future sunk dev time in maintaining these through future upgrades. So they went through their items and either removed them or made them worthwhile in game to justify time spend maintaining them.

    I understand the founder stuff etc, but we are live now, is the live stream monthly awards not enough rares for players?......

    I agree with this change and would have a policy of not expiring ANYTHING in the future from the add-on store. Yes it may help your cash flow short term by people buying more stuff in a short period of time, but if this game lasts many more years/decades etc, it will cost in the long term.

    Making the vaulted ones look different does not fix the problem above, unless they create a way to use the same asset and kind of add an effect that makes the difference, but is essentially the same asset.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  12. Stryker Sparhawk

    Stryker Sparhawk Bug Hunter

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    This is a historical note for mostly @Spoon

    Stinging Tree Hollow has had a dedicated pitchfork and torch vendor for as long as I can remember.

    Reference- @Alley Oop
     
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  13. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Avatar

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    Expiring content is a marketing thing, it increases sales and gets people to rush to buy it. There were many expiration events and each time they were trumpeted as the last chance to get the item. Whether they sell items in the store, or from a vault, it's still selling something that was never to be sold again. In the past they reskinned some things or changed them, and stretched the meaning of unique - but this isn't a reskin or adding a moustache, it's just a tooltip. The only way to tell the difference is to run up to it and hover over it with your mouse cursor.

    I dislike encouraging a player base to collect "rares!" and to buy things as your "last chance!" during the expiration event and to talk about rares as a collectors second economy for traders to trade when they're going to release an unlimited number of copies of that item again in the future.

    Sometimes a player buys an item just because it's rare and they want to have that piece of history that you had to be there for, or trade with someone who was. Re-releasing items that were "last chance exclusives!" nullifies this expiration event.
     
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  14. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

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    Every time I get within a hares whisker of returning to the game......I see a Port decision like this, reneging on promises. In this instance, promises that encouraged people to spend money to obtain that "rare" item only now find it wont really be rare at all.

    In principle I have no objection with the idea on new "rares" going forward......past rares should remain true rares as intended and as promised.

    Whilst Portalarium continue to demonstrate they can't even make a cup of coffee, myself and others will just simply stay away.........up until now despite not playing, I still supported the game via a few subscription......I just this second cancelled them all.
     
  15. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

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    My old suggestion from back in 2015 in the aftermath of the bruha of the returning seasonals was a flag in the database so such mistakes couldn't happen and
    • Different name colors on rares, vs recurring vs common items.
    • Different icons representing rare and recurring. (Kinda like what you did with the dye icon).
    My thought back then was that it should be visible in both the store image, but also in vendor listings which is which.
    This was also to prevent new arrivals being tricked. We still see the principle in action on vendors where some price the Gift Box 2016 craftable at a rare price level, where people assume it is a rare due to the year tag.

    Now I'd recommend a slightly different version for a rarity policy.

    Apologies for rambling but had it been me I'd do something along these lines:
    • Rarity glossary
      • Native items
        --items from New Brittania
        --no restrictions
      • Imports
        --crown imports, from crown stores
        --outlander imports, from reward programs etc
        --recurring imports, for instance the LB & DS birthday stuff and most seasonal stuff
        --only restriction is that they are not to be craftable at a later point
      • Collectible rares
        --recurring rares
        --seasonal rares
        --annual rares
        --expired rares
        --when collectibles come back they have new names and are recolored/reskinned every time
      • Limited edition
        --numbered exclusives etc
        -- items that don't come back in that form
    For instance for a while we could buy a big pack of Blocks, which was also craftable. Those would be Native items, that we buy from the store.
    While Obsidian potions would be Imports.
    The difference between Import and Collectibles can be seen at holidays where things like the day of the dead masks come back every year, same name same shape. While collectibles would be the yearly Jack'o lantern that are reskinned every year.

    Then going forward but not applicable to old stuff, add something visual to the name/title of the object.
    For instance color. But could just as simply be an icon at the start of the name. ■ ● ★ ✪


    Lets say an item was previously listed as $10, but since then its second market value has gone up to $100.
    Then you'd still cause drama even if you priced the item at $20.

    Just like MtG.
    What they did there to keep the peace was to make really valuable cards into ultra rare in the collector editions.

    .


    I'd definately recommend not just pledge items for things not going into the Vault.

    Example of things stated as having protected exclusivity from the top of my head.
    • The original hobloth cabinets
    • Some of the original addon store houses
    • Some early stuff in the addon store were given guarantees of limited numbers, like the oracle head
    • The old stretch goals,
    • Some of the bundle stuff, think it was pets or something
    • Some of the reliquary stuff
    • Some of the Countach stuff
    • Seedinvest gold reward versions

    Later things would be stuff like
    • special community event cloaks
    • QA item rewards
    • Streamer version camera reward
    were said to be only earned through those programs.



    Things I'd recommend for the Vault would be things like what was on the specialist crown vendors. Or the non-exclusive items of the bundles. Some of the old but recurring pets. etc

    At least until you have figured out your policy going forward. That way the drama would be limited.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  16. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    supposedly, all the things on those vendors is to be added to the general crown store, they were just doing the web store conversion part first.

     
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  17. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck Avatar

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    Multiple Personality Disorder

    Right hand: selling Vault items catering to the masses

    Left hand: selling high priced "Exclusive" packages catering to niche

    [​IMG]

    Does $7,999 get any exclusivity?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  18. Elwyn

    Elwyn Avatar

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    I should point out that there are no tooltips for placed houses. Or at least you can't see the one for the house deed once it's placed. If a crafted house is placed, nobody can see who made it while it is placed, not even the owner.

    Also you can't see tooltips on clothing worn by someone else. Placed deco shows the name in blue or orange/blue, the blue could surely be changed to another color like yellow. Of course caution needs to be made in using new colors, to avoid ending up with a confusing rainbow of colors. (For instance, the plethora of relative mob level nameplate colors in LOTRO are holy crap confusing.)

    It is also possible that the expired item maintenance problem could be mitigated if they used some tech like nested prefabs to have both exclusive and normal models based off of the same original model.
     
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  19. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Avatar

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    The other day I was browsing the old houses on sota wiki. Most of them are boring and bland, like "2 story town home with open room plan and overhang." But, I was thinking, they add variety, and in some cases, boring and bland variety is exactly what you need to make a section of town feel town-y. But then I was sad to realize that like 15 (hyperbole?) of these boring n' bland homes were now rares, never to be added to the homes of the future.

    Then I realized I have pretty much never seen these homes in game, and wondered how many of them actually exist in the game world.

    Then I thought about the lack of balance between this and other rares, like Obsidian Towers, Viking Fortresses, Kobold Outhouses (heheehehe...), etc, and the rarity of the "boring n' bland" variety.

    Ultimately, I think all the "boring n' bland" stuff needs to come back, if the devs can assert that indeed, they dont appear much in the game world today, and we involve the player community cuz feels. We can also define the boundaries of "boring n' bland" as a community (come on, knight tower? thats so basic). Variety can be brought back to the house deed market by having a lot of different styles of basics.

    Or heck, dev team, just crank out a bunch of cool new basic row, village, and town homes :)

    I do believe the "character n' soul" homes can stay expired, and that their forever rarity strengthens the IRL and in-game economy (because I have Ultima Online bias). Obsidian towers, Elven globe homes, Magical Wizard Towers, etc, all have some specific flavors and color to them, such that players will always be seeking them out over time. Port can create new things like this in the future, and the old ones become cast into the game lore once they expire from sale. Eventually, they become distinct accents throughout the world of Novia, when once they were just a sign of keeping up with the Johneses. Over time, there will be a nice market for trading in these deeds, and items like them, allowing for future generation of avatars to denote the different flares and styles of the past eras of SotA's in-game item development.

    The kickstarter / founder / benefactor / pre-persistence stuff must remain exclusive and rare, its a definitive part of SotA culture. It adds immense value to the game lore that these are the rarest items, dating to the earliest known times in Novia's history. Sure, it has the ugly side effect of 3rd party profit potential, but it also adds deep lore and character to the game through uniqueness. I would like for the Lord's Sceptre on display in my public establishment to grow in power each year, as SotA's continued success creates more value in my priceless artifact exactly through its rarity.

    Lets make new stuff every so often!

    ----

    I think its important to not accuse Portalarium of doing any of this as though it were planned this way from the start; I doubt there is any conspiracy here. Its just as important for players to react to feelings of "ickyness" though, when a deal does not go as expected.

    Personally I just things move so fast (for them) and so much is happening at once at a given time that they are simply human and don't notice when they've contrained on some earlier conditions or agreements. Keep in mind, most big games have teams of lawyers combing over public-facing changes, and our crowdfunded project has only the Darkstarr's DLMB clause.

    Its important to raise issues that may divide the community, and its important that people share their feelings when they dont believe they are treated fairly, or when they observe something unhealthy for the community. I think its just as important to stay positive, favor trust over accusation, and keep working towards a positive outcome the main focus of how we spend our energies.

    Keep in mind that for an iteratively developing product, that plan will need to be flexible, but also one day be able to evolve into something a bit new and more adaptive to then-present conditions. If they stick to things with rigidity, then there will be an eventual crash. Never say never, and survive capitalism :)

    That being said, the community shall be involved when any such reneges happen.

    I think there is some market data to suggest there are in fact quite a many players which apply large quantities of backing fuel (dollars) so that they can later capitalize on rare items. Even though I agree that this player makes my game experience less immersive, I would live with it as an inconvenient truth, if it were the only way to get enough money for the company to survive.

    I know for a fact that there are ex ultima fans who invested in SoTA simply for the potential rebirth of that same UO-style rares - items that can never enter the game world again! Those players spent money to back SoTA, so technically every dollar they continue to pledge is a dollar earned by the rarity of some items.

    I totally agree, but I do think the reality is, that significant backing may be coming from the type of player that only uses SotA as an investment opportunity.

    There is also the possibility that a few edge case players are devoted to the lore and culture of the game entirely, and still use heavy return on investment for rares as a means of immersing themselves in the game (for example, ultima online fanatics wanting to feel the "spiritual successor-ness" with this very aspect of the game - out of print rares trading).



    BOOOOO!!!!!! Omg I would wretch if grand tour items were available for purchase!

    Im fine with items that look exactly like them go up for sale, but they must have a unique title ("poser chaperone hat of virtue")


    oh, now thats a bit harsh, dont you think?


    This seems sensible thus far, thanks. I am a bit skeptical of the "tooltip" vault version, but I do see it as an opportunity for you to cash in on something that requires little effort on yourside, without obsoleting existing rares. I do hope they are clearly visibly distinguishable (and not only so slightly different that its hard to tell at a glance). I dare not enter the subjective "better looking" aspect, just not the same looking.

    TY for keeping the pledge items safe :)


    ...though I know the community will enter the subjective "better looking" aspect, and this is a big deal.

    So be wise, devs, and make them not better looking than the originals ;-)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  20. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Yea, personally I find it weird that the stone row homes were tied to pledges (which I have), when they're a kind of thing you would want to offer as commonplace. But then I also don't get why they added common critters like owls and such as pledge rewards either, when you want these things in the wild, too.
     
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