Early Access Panel - Developers talk about experience with it

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Myrcello, Jan 23, 2017.

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  1. Myrcello

    Myrcello Avatar

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    Hi all.

    Must watch for all who are interested about Early Access.

    These Developers talk about Early Access on Steam:

    Will Turnboll - Clay Entertainment - created Don´t Starve

    Tyler Sigmund - Red Hook Studios - created Darkest Dungeon

    Arthur Bruno - Crate Entertainment - created Grim Dawn

    Russ Clark - Payload Studios - created TerraTech

    Tynan Sylvester - Ludeon Studios - created RimWorld







    This was the first Question they received on what they wish they knew before going into Early Access:


    Response Tyler from Darkest Dungeon :

    ( Summery) - We thought all who purchase into Early Access would understand and be open to changes we might make during a development and that they understand that this is a changing process -

    but we had to deal with huge resistance to changes during development making it a huge community management challenge



    Response from Arthur from Grim Dawn:

    (Summery) - We did expect and prepared for a more poished Early Access release that had a Game that should be already fun but we did get a hard time with the expectation of the Gamers in regards to releasing new content. We did take 3 to 6 month to release new Content for the Game and the Gamers would burn through them in 1 day within 10 hours. So we would maybe do sort of a pre-development of content prior to Release.



    Response from Russ Clark - TerraTech

    ( Summary): Almost same experience like Tyler from Darkest Dungeon - We went in very, very early in Development into Early Access - well we had to - we did need the money.
    We also received significant negative feedback from balance changes that we needed to do during development and it was a reoccurring theme.
    But another thing we had not really been prepared for, and i would have loved knowing in advance, is some of the deep-seated feelings in the player community about certain specific issues.
    For example we launched with a DLC in the GAme.

    Response from Tynan Sylvester

    He says that the others did give the examples of the Dark Side of Early Access for the first Question but he points out the opposite side of the huge value you get from the Community from volunteering to translate to testing to creating mods and suggestion and you could never do that alone and so on.

    P.S: I loved him saying how he sorts out Feedback and the challenges and ability you need to differ from Feedback of Players who are maybe close to you or just loud and the ability to find the ones that come from many and feedback that comes again and again. So responding to the right feedback .



    And i did love also a Response from Tyler about looking at negative Feedback:

    Sometimes if someone is negative about a Feature of a Game it might even mean - As designed.
    Your Game is not for everyone. So a negative Feedback can proof you are within your vision. :)

    Well to move on - Watch it ! - only 1 hour!

    Very interesting - for both you Developers of Portalarium and you Community Members.
    :)


    Kind regards

    Myrcello





     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  2. 2112Starman

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    Starr actually has some presentations he has done that I saw on LinkedIn and he does mention that allowing people into early access has been very difficult mainly due to expectations. I have been loud here on these forums myself about this topic, how I think its not a good idea because most people just dont understand what a game in alpha/beta really is.

    We still have people here demanding that this game is in full release due to persistence
     
  3. Merlota

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    Yep, because once things are persistent you are at the point of only getting one chance at a quest. Broken and experience ruined, too bad cannot run it again after the wipe. Everything you do with characters matters (account wide virtue). You just bought the game and didn't get a good housing spot too bad because there won't be another chance at release. Then there is the issue of new players being 6+ months behind established players in a game with no caps.

    OP, I'm not familiar with all those games but many are games where you play, die & start over. That is very different from a MMO where there is continuity. A major change is made to rimworld I might have to learn how to play again and might not even like the new game but I don't lose 6 months of advancement. I'm not that invested in that type of game.
     
  4. Vallo Frostbane

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    The difference here is the devs went too far away from the initial kickstarter promise. Also the progress and the way some of the kickstarter promises have been dealt with are not satisfying... see my "where is the castles" thread or just look at the state of the story and the way it is presented. Also a lot of game functions are not explained within the current lore, and the lore overall is totally missing... for an "Ultima" game that's a real bummer. How how can anyone explain all the flagging and why people unflag with current lore or game mechanics?

    The criticism is deserved, and another problem here is that a lot of negative criticism gets censored and @Berek tries to actively shut down any negative discussion here by claiming the threads are derailed. Maybe he thinks hes doing sth different, but for a lot of people it appears exactly like that.
    It just shows that discussion is not turning out the way Portalarium wants it. ;)

    This behavior has generated HATE that shows outside of these forums... Nearly every article or review of the game gets bombarded with HATE. This hate was generated by the way people were dealt with here....

    SotA really needs to rethink their approach on community management IMHO. So far it looks like as long as the forums are dead and there is no discussion, they feel they have done a good job. The opposite is the case. I have managed freeshard forums that had more active users. ^^

    All that being said, I really wish them all the best. Not only because I have a huge amount of money invested, but also because I loved the attempt to bring back a virtual world. So far it is not successful, but the product isn't finished yet.

    If I had a say in any of this, I would make at least a huge anouncement of the state of the game. What my plans are, how I am going to attain the promised kickstarter goals. The main complaints have never been adressed.

    @DarkStarr said in the last telethon that Guild Wars are only for bragging rights. Really? Bragging rights?
    I mean who do you expect to play a game, without any gameplay mechanics and keep being interested in it?

    What about Castles and sieges? What about the kickstarter promises? What about crafters building stuff for the castles and PVERs raiding for artifacts or anything that shows any depth worth of an Ultima Sucessor and a virtual world??!
    No wonder steam reviews tank again... It is deserved.

    I wonder how long this state of the game can go on, before money runs out. I don't think they are making any profit yet.
    Too bad they bet on the wrong horse demographic wise. ;) Virtual World doesn't mean Party Hugbox.

    This post turned out to be darker than intended ^^
     
  5. 2112Starman

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    but.... the devs have made it clear quests/virtue can be reset at release if you would like... because the game is in alpha now.

    Housing spots are what we make of them. Owl is still popular now but in the time I have played, new ones have popped up in places like Brit. Im sure that will change in the future as more people play, their will be new spots with a regional focus.

    Besides that fact, Im sure there will always be GREAT PoT spots right next to any location someone wants to be homes in.
     
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  6. 2112Starman

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    I have to agree and yes, this discussion will get this thread closed. I have actually reported a certain moderators posts when they close something I disagree with and I then received PM's from that person asking me if I am happy with the game and should take a break from it... which to me was a complete WTF and utter disregard for customer service.

    I would go further and say their advertising (social media) is terrible and THAT has made people hate this game. all the pictures and videos show people standing around (as they do) dancing around with their shirts off all the time. While this makes happy a very small minority of big spending customers... looking at if from the outside target audience is a complete WTF. Then add in the fact that this seems be be the content they make the most... This is truly the perception of the game over the past 10 months for sure.

    When I played U3+, I dont recall the fun thing about the game being putting girl panties on my male tune and dancing around. I like going out and killin stuff and THAT is the vast majority of the players of RPG's.

    They should have videos of a group burning through The Rise to heavy rock.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  7. Vallo Frostbane

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    Absolutely its disturbing. They desperately need PR and reassess what their core demographic was during the kickstarter. Oldschool RPG Gamers and UO Crowd. Neither are happy with Shroud currently.
     
  8. Weins201

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    yeah is suck they have to deal with player input, but their main problem is NOT that they are adapting and adjusting their main problem and one that is goin to get larger and larger. . . . .

    is that they are utterly failing on delivering what they originally put on the table.

    Players understand adaptation and adjustments but will not understand, or tolerate, failure to deliver.
     
  9. Vallo Frostbane

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    Well I wouldn't even say its failure to deliver... it sometimes just doesn't make sense.

    How long took it for them to understand that there will be no one flagging PVP if there is nothing to be gained from it. PVE and PVP need to be connected in a virtual world. This is no Theme Park.

    Guild Wars - I bet there hasn't been a single one lately... Why? Nothing to fight over.

    Guilds lose members and people are bored? Why? Nothing to achieve together... everything to build up needs to be bought.

    No conflict, no drama nothing but butterfly dance parties where people don't even talk to each other. They all just sit there. If been to those events. Nothing is happening there.

    Roleplaying keeps meaningless as well. How to RP a militia or an evil cult, if there is nothing to protect or to attack.

    Maybe they have a plan on all those things... they just don't let us know. This costs us players everyday.
    Blood Bay is a nice Gimmick, but don't expect it to be endgame content. If that's the endgame content for player interaction this game is definitely NOT a worthy Ultima successor and definitely NOT a sandbox.
     
  10. redfish

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    Hmmm... what a weird dichotomy.... no, neither naked dancing on tables in butterfly wings, or going on some grindy action packed warpath to Heavy Rock is what Ultima has ever been about. And I doubt most RPGers care for the second, either, unless they're specifically Action RPGers or MOBA-players who prefer games like Diablo to games like Skyrim.
     
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  11. Vallo Frostbane

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    I remember fondly the dungeon raids in UO. And the chases etc. ;) It was also grindy.. but I somehow knew why I was doing it. The world had more purpose and meaning to me. Shroud offers no gameplay really that would encourage group play and/or conflict of any kind.
     
  12. Poor game design

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    Here's my problem with this statement, and others...

    1. You have no idea what they "desperately need". And unfortunately you're not alone. There are all kinds of arm chair developers and marketeers in our forums, on the internet, and in generally in life. If all these people know the magic formula, why aren't they making their own games?
    2. You also don't know what their "core demographic" is, or even what it was during the kickstarter. Oldschool RPG Gamers and UO Crowd? Oh, neither are happy? You don't say. While there may be anecdotal evidence to support this narrative, there's really not enough evidence to freak out over it. Again, you're not alone and this is not directed at you personally. There are a lot of people that do this, they project a narrative and say things like "we all know this is the truth" and "most people feel this way", it's called demagoguery.

    The following definition seems fitting here:
    I really do understand that there are people tired of waiting for this game to finish. I also understand that there are people that don't enjoy the collective path we're taking. There are different playstyles, but there are also very different extremes of those playstyles all present in these forums. But what I take issue with is the constant attempt to define what the game is and isn't based on whatever extreme people feel most represents what they want.

    So what is Shroud of the Avatar then?
    That's from the FAQs. But if we look at what is on the Kickstarter page, we see this regarding PVP.

    So sit back, relax, and stop trying to play Monday Morning Quarterback. Or don't, and keep spouting off like a demagogue. Either way, the game is going to be made as intended regardless of whatever narrative someone on the internet makes up.
     
  13. Black Tortoise

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    Excellent post. I think most of the "vocal" types in this forum need to watch this video!
     
  14. Vagabond Sam

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    So there's no reason for feedback from players who have spent money in the game. Just let Port do whatever?

    The game is boring and somehow difficulty has been equated with 'grind' a there are no obsticles that aren't overcome by simply grinding. Whether creating or combat.

    When the feedback on a change is negative because it increases the grind, it gets reinforced by those who believe time and skill are the same.

    There is a lot of people who clearly understand the meaning of Early Access and the mantra of "rekax, the game isn't done" completly misses the point of feedback cycles during development.

    These ridiculous calls for people to stop giving negative feedback are likely to have people stop playing instead of getting involved in the process of testing and critiquing the game to allow it to fufil it's potential.
     
  15. Poor game design

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    No, that's not what I said at all.

    It's one thing to actually give feedback. It's another thing entirely to make up narratives and false claims. All I'm saying is that if you have feedback, give feedback. But don't make up stuff to try to make that feedback seem more important or valuable than it really is.

    Example of valid feedback: (although it's not particularly helpful)

    I don't like grinding it's boring.


    Example of horrible misleading feedback:

    What Portalarium has to do is create a HUGE marketing campaign to attract new players. Everyone hates this game, because there's a lot of grinding and it's boring. True PVPers are really upset about this. No one that liked OLD UO will ever play this game.


    Do you see the difference?
     
  16. Vagabond Sam

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    I see the difference but i also think you're not being fair to the user who suggested portalariun reassess their intended user and how they may or may not be catering to them.

    I missed the part where anyone suggested a social media marketing push.

    I also tenured my response to the general tone of this thread where people are holding up these videos as evidence that early access should equate to people being lenient on developers.

    I think the culture around here is heavily in favor of the echo chamber and it will result in less then a minimum viable product to see the game establish a long lasting legacy.

    How often are people giving feedback ridiculed and baited by people who disagree? How often is someone's opinion or experience characterized as objectively wrong? How often do these threads get moderated, locked or just removed while people are still actively (often constructively) discussing passionately about game systems?

    I don't think it's the players who are most often misunderstanding the role of critical feedback.
     
  17. Poor game design

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    You're entitled to your opinion.
    Well I certainly do.

    But all players are not equal. Some have more life experience, for example. Some might be poor communicators. While others might have the ability to connect the dots and appreciate what the developers are working hard to do. If someone has expectations that are not being met, it's very easy to assume they're right, the developers are wrong, and that's all there is to it. Of course, that's a very naive way to approach life. The Superbowl is two weeks away and no one "knows" who will win the game. That's why they play it. So what good would feedback to the Atlanta Falcons that they're going to lose have on the team? What good would feedback that they can't stop the run provide them? Perhaps they know that? Perhaps they are working and doing their best? Perhaps even if they can't stop the run and even if they are not favored to win, maybe just maybe fans will let them play the game first before they hang the loss over their heads?

    That's the difference between what happens in this forum and what happens in Austin, TX. Here there's just a whole lot of "experts" making stuff up and saying how they "feel", and in Austin they're actually doing the work. If you want to give feedback, fine, but maybe leave out all the parts about "you can't do it that way" before the game is played. Maybe check yourself before you provide feedback that's not worth the time it takes to read.

    Just a thought for all the genius "players" out there.

    OR...just keep doing what you're doing. But don't expect for them not to moderate the forums to clear out some of the stuff that isn't helping anyone.
     
  18. Vagabond Sam

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    Your standards for feedback are quite high.

    I would expect the base be any feedback is better then no feedback and the large picture of all the data points can often give enough of a picture to take action.

    "The game is to grindy" is actually helpful. It tells the team something about the game.

    It's too much to ask fans to also submit the fix to their problem because, a you identify, the devs are the experts.

    The idea that community feedback has to be granular to be valuable is just astonishingly naive.

    It's better a 1000 people give some short feedback then 100 giving detailed feedback because it gives you a better range of experiences. Ideally you have both.

    SOTA encourages the latter and actively discourages the former with users too inclined to argue with posters over their responsibility to provide a full run down of alternatives and evidence.

    The problem is whether we like or dislike a game is 100% based on emotions and feelings.

    I hate the crafting system not because it is our isn't balanced at a macro level. Bit because from moment to moment it feels unrewarding and only rewards 'as intended' when your output reaches the average number of attempts to get your expected reward as it relies on rng.

    I see very often people give feedback asking if the numbers are broken because the system feels bad and you end up in a maths atonement and never freak with the actual issue in that the maths approach by the law of averages means 50% of creating will be "under expectations"

    But we never see those conversations because the argument is over the relevance of someone's experience, or their professional qualifications or other pointless arguments to try and discredit discussion.

    I don't think the current culture in the community allows the team to get valuable feedback because it always devolves into people arguing with each other, rather then the topics at hand. It happens both ways unfortunately. Both critics and fans.

    It's something the mod team can help to address but instead they foster it by erring on the side of creating an echo chamber
     
  19. Poor game design

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    Please show me one example of good feedback that has been ignored by Portlarium. Show me feedback where they simply didn't listen.
     
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  20. Poor game design

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    I like it. So why is your feedback more important than mine? Answer, it's not.

    The developers have to make a decision, in fact lots of decisions. We're not always going to like the answers. Why would you expect otherwise?
     
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