Early Access Panel - Developers talk about experience with it

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Myrcello, Jan 23, 2017.

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  1. Vagabond Sam

    Vagabond Sam Avatar

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    The crafting system is flat, rng reliant and there is no stated plan to make it interactive beyond the number crunching rolls.

    *EDIT*

    Just saw your second reply.

    I've not said your preference was less important then mine.

    In not salty that crafting, despite being my major intention in playing since i backed, is flat to me.

    I just don't do it and where appropriate provide my opinion on where it can be improved.
     
  2. Poor game design

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    It's not that they aren't listening though. They're just choosing not to implement a non-rng system. There's a huge difference between those two things.

    Do you know why they want an RNG system? (it's not because they're trying to make a bad game or make people quit or get them angry)
     
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  3. Gideon Thrax

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    When the community flounders in tough discussions it's very rare that a dev will step in to take control of the conversation. Rarer still do we get to have real discussions where the devs are sharing intimate knowledge of the project and talking candidly with us about our feedback. Instead what happens is someone lights a torch and cries like they're being paid by the tear until a dev says "that's a bug, we'll fix it". And when that happens it leaves a lot of people feeling disenfranchised.

    There's no guidance on how we should contribute to early access. There are no scheduled test days for specific mechanics... So, people get in game and have a bad experience and they get upset and quit... Or threaten to quit, or just rage post. People get upset and bring it to the forums and their threads get locked or they're told to take it to PM. Players threaten to quit playing until the devs do "X". And Berek, bless his heart for dealing with us but his focus is housing and player parties and decorating. And that's great - but what about the rest of it?

    There's something in the OP that may or may not apply: "Sometimes if someone is negative about a Feature of a Game it might even mean - As designed. Your Game is not for everyone. So a negative Feedback can proof you are within your vision. "

    Should we as a community really be left to our perceptions and be given leave to walk away feeling disenfranchised?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  4. Poor game design

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    What's your favorite game of all time?

    Follow-up question...how much development feedback do you remember giving to that game? :)

    The argument that says that for some reason the developers should be out here babysitting us and not making the game, just seems like a mixed up priority to me. Either they're make a good game or they won't. There's no middle ground. Either you'll enjoy it collectively or you won't.

    Just like every other game that's ever been made. The difference is that THIS GAME is trying their best to be as open as they can while still actually delivering a good game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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  5. Preachyr

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    @Myrcello thanks for posting this! I supported both Darkest Dungeon and Grim Dawn and loved both games so this is a very interesting video to watch!
     
  6. Gideon Thrax

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    Star Citizen.
     
  7. Poor game design

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    Funny, it seems like you're always here either playing or in the forums. :)

    (Star Citizen is a very funny answer, for so many reasons. At least 100 million reasons that I can think of off the top of my head. Ya know what would be an equally funny answer? No Man's Sky. Now there was a team that could communicate a message! I wonder how Star Citizen will turn out? It's clear their message is being received. But will the end product be any better than No Man's Sky? We won't know until they release the game, just like any other game. Are you picking up what I'm putting down?)
     
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  8. Gideon Thrax

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    What I'm picking up from you BDF is that you won't flag for PVP - and that's a shame... because if you would, my favorite game would be PKing you.
     
  9. Poor game design

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    If you want me to flag for PVP, I provided a list of what's preventing me from doing that. Jump on the band wagon and help me get some of these things changed!

    Also, please let me know how your in-game experiences with me turn out when the time is appropriate.
     
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  10. MasterWan

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    I think there needs to be another wipe. At least partial. Perhaps you choose your favorite three trees. How else will release players be able to get in. What was the vision there?
     
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  11. Gideon Thrax

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    Your list is exactly what I was talking about above; thank you for supporting my points!
    • You had some opinions/feedback ... didn't post in dev+ or in a bug report, instead you went for widest community exposure
    • Thread had a heated discussion that floundered and spiraled
    • Thread was locked and closed out with a remark from our Community Manager about PVP threads and a suggestion to take our concerns to PM. Ref: "Why do PvP threads always devolve into bickering that I have to then lock the thread? Let's think about that... take it to PM guys. Too many posts to remove on these last couple of pages, so going to close the thread. Thanks!"
     
  12. Poor game design

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    There were people in the thread that went way off-topic. It doesn't bother me that the thread got closed. I know the devs are good listeners, I'm sure they heard that feedback and considered it.

    What's the problem?
     
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  13. Preachyr

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    I want to get some comments in here to address some things that people have said before this thread gets closed, as I can see that it is heading that way. I imagine it won't be long before Berek is here closing down the negative discussion because it's 'off topic'.


    This is absolutely happening and being noticed and it is turning people off. The rate that threads are being closed and more importantly the TYPES of discussions that are being closed makes it seem like port and Berek are in damage control mode. It doesn't help that they were caught out having employees give positive steam reviews without disclosing thier status as employees of the company, and it also doesnt help that they actively support and encourage vote rigging in various polls and even have developers get into comment wars on those other sites with people who are critical of the game... but I digress..


    Yes there are certainly people who don't understand what an alpha and beta really is and you are one of them. This game is far from an alpha. Just because Port wants to use the terms alpha and beta differently than what they are typically used for doesnt change the status of this game. This game is at the VERY LEAST in an open beta stage. It can easily be argued that it's essentially launched due to persistence and the housing rush, advancement of so many players over any new players, etc.

    To claim that this game is still an alpha, or pre alpha, whether by you, or by port, is being intentionally dishonest.


    This is one of the fundamental problems with SotA. Why do we do anything? There is no meaning to anything in the game. It's not even about the storyline not being implemented yet, after all, UO had no story and you still felt a sense of purpose in exploring and raiding dungeons and killing unique creatures. All that was due to the design of the world and the interaction between you and the world, all without being held by the hand or being part of any official story. You made your own story.

    For whatever reason, SotA is lacking that charm and that connection that a player feels to the world. There is no meaning to the world and there is no incentive nor inspiration to craft your own story. There is only repetitive grinding and crafting and decorating. I know many people will tell me this is going to change, but look at the direction of everything up to this point and you can easily see that what we have now is what we will continue to get. More of the same soulless, heartless world that we have now. I honestly don't see a solution to this without some major changes to the game that I know are not going to happen.


    The utter dismissal of any criticism of this game from people like you who think that negative experiences are just 'made up narratives' is a big part of why this game is in such a sorry state right now. I consider myself fairly neutral, I am invested in this game and I really want it to succeed and i'm doing what I can to support them and make it happen. The constant cheerleading for the current mediocrity and the instant dismissal of negative feedback and the closing of threads that become critical of the game... all of this hurts the game far more than anything else can right now.


    You know as well as I do that this is hard to do because lately they have been largely silent on the forums. They rarely respond to feedback or give us any great insights into what they are planning or what thier intent of different features are when they are questioned about it. So no, you won't get an example of 'ignored' feedback since there's always the possibility they are reading it, but you can certainly look through all the discussions about various parts of the game, especially critical discussions, and see a disturbing lack of response from the devs.



    This I agree with very much. It is a big issue and considering what the state of the game is that they claim, its amazing to me that we don't have any specific tests or any communication about what we should be testing or providing feedback on. Any other game that is crowdfunded and in the "alpha" or "beta" stages has clear goals for what needs to be tested and worked on.


    Also something to keep in mind, sometimes if someone is negative about a feature of a game... they are right. In this case, there are a lot of negative opinions about SotA, and maybe, just maybe it's because it's currently mediocre in many aspects and not strong in anything (except perhaps housing). I want SotA to succeed and it's important to acknowledge when the game is not fun and work to fix that rather than just cheerleading the dev team on for thier continuing medocrity.


    I know I tagged a lot of people here but I wanted to get these comments typed out because I've been seeing similar discussions and feeling this way for a bit now. As I mentioned, I want the game to succeed, but right now I really do not like how it is going and I especially do not like what i've been seeing in the community for the above reasons. This game needs a shot in the arm and it needs good honest critical feedback in order to turn it around and make it fun and appealing.
     
  14. Poor game design

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    What you call mediocrity would be called unfinished in any other close game environment.

    Are there parts of this game that I despise in its current form? Sure, yes, absolutely. In fact I post about that often. But what I don't do is lose sight of where we've come from, or that we're still in development.

    They have been more silent, I agree. And yes, it's hard for people to casually play or follow this game and not wonder if we're not moving in a bad direction. I totally understand that.

    They're a very small team though, so LITERALLY any time spent on the forums or answering questions takes away from important development. That's just a fact.

    What's also a fact is that they provide daily stand-up notes. Quarterly schedules. Post Mortem Dev-Hangouts, Telethons (don't see any questions from you here, btw), and they do post in the forums. They're also known to answer PM's on occasion. Is this perfect communication? No, it's far from it. But they really don't have the luxury to do much more, even though when you look at it objectively for a team and budget this size they're doing quite a bit more than most games in development.

    Quick question, did they promise a AAA game in the Kickstarter or in the FAQ's? I honestly don't know the answer to this question. I'm guessing they didn't though. (checked it...they did not) So maybe expectations are not quite in line with what we're building here. Maybe we never started out to make the next WOW for a reason, because we had limited funds, resources, and time.

    For my money, I think this game is shaping up really nicely.
     
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  15. Uncle Sven

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    I appreciated that Tyler Sigmund acknowledged they dropped the ball when, players were having fun before an update, but not after. He also acknowledges he has an obligation to his customers to provide a product they like.
     
  16. Preachyr

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    This is not a closed game environment... the game is on steam early access and is persistent.
     
  17. Poor game design

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    Right, that's exactly my point.

    When did early access become launch? Fans don't want to play a game in development they have two options, both involve "not playing" until it's launched.


    Seriously, I'm watching the first few answers in the OP video and they're literally talking about how people didn't treat it like it was in development and didn't realize it needed more polish that there were a lot of community challenges when features changed.

    This is sooooo a player problem, and yes developers have to manage that when they have an early access game, but you can hear it in these developers voices, the pain of those experiences. Most players are simply not very well equipped to deal with the REALITY of a game in development.
     
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  18. Preachyr

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    You are completely ignoring the point I was making though.

    Just because the game is in development, doesn't mean that all negative feedback can immediately be dismissed.

    This game as it currently stands is mediocre in all respects other than housing. Shutting down conversations regarding the games inadequacies just because it is 'in development' does not do anyone any good.


    Also, no one claimed that early access means launch, but with the game being persistent and with some big milestones such as the land rush over already, the game is far closer to launch than you seem to want to admit. It is most certainly not in 'pre-alpha' or 'alpha' states as some people keep trying to push.
     
  19. Poor game design

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    I never said it should.

    I know for a fact that Portalarium listens to all of the negative feedback. It's well documented with all the massive changes they've made over the years because of negative feedback.

    That's an opinion that is not supported by facts. I happen to disagree with that opinion very strongly.

    Again, you're projecting a false narrative. Where is someone doing that?

    I just said it wasn't in launch. I'm not really interested in arguing about the margins though. If you don't like the game, you're not forced to play it.

    I happen to love the game despite all of it's warts and many unfinished areas.
     
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  20. Preachyr

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    And again, you are completely missing the point and disregarding what I said in my comments. I described quite clearly in my post in response to another person why I don't like the trend of threads being closed when they turn negative, and discussions being shut down. I commented on exactly why I think that critical feedback is good and needed and shouldn't be shut down.

    You can claim 'false narrative' all you want, and you can talk about how if one doesn't like the game they are not forced to play it.. and that is exactly part of the problem that i'm talking about when i refer to the trend of shutting down discussion.

    It is not a 'false narrative' just because you disagree with it, it is my view of things, supported by plenty of examples and shared by plenty of people.

    You are free to love the game despite its deficiencies and I would never presume to say you shouldn't. All I ask is that the same type of respect be extended to me and people like me who are critical of the game while still wanting it to succeed. But hey, maybe that's a false narrative too.
     
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