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Flagged PVP - Ganked by PVE-ers!

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by Fister Magee, Apr 2, 2016.

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  1. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    The devs have a thick skin perhaps even cornus or horn by now, nobody is going to get hurt, such claims have flown before and this is the same issue with the single player offline fans who request so many simple things but see their desires pushed back while the game focuses on "high level pvp balance" and content uniquely based on that balance.

    The excuse is that once the high levels are balanced like in WoW, then we'll have a nice automated Sims and then we can begin to tweak the single player experience. However for those of us that remember, and have been participating in early pvp releases, we know that portalarium was answering to a "really big pvp guild" who is not even helping with testing but obviously has alot of influence in developpement. Obviously many of us also think that when you build a single player story, you need to do it differently from scratch.

    In fact they're not even on the forums, that big pvp guild, they have a direct channel to the devs, and when you do such favoritism people will always end up feeling icky, on both sides. It's supposed to be a game, we're supposed to follow logic... Sometimes knowing who you're working for is essential, and transparency is optimal.

    I'd say a fan backed game is pretty much the definition of such a situation.

    I would sure like to know WHO this big guild is, it will help me cope with the fact that I feel since this early PvP release that my dream and vision for this game have been irremediably broken, rolled into the mud and shaken into dehydrated troll flour to be finally baked in the fiery hell of mount doom.
     
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  2. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    I read it again, and again and I cannot beleive someone sober and in full capacity has written and programmed this. It must be an error :confused:
     
  3. Bubonic

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    It certainly does appear to be a choice, intentionally or unintentionally, catering to PKing and gank mobs.
     
  4. Poor game design

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    I'm not required to do anything. I'm VERY confident that the devs know exactly what I'm talking about, and the video would reveal exactly what I'm talking about.

    Because I don't want to waste my time searching through the video, I'm not going to look it up. If the devs want to say that I'm incorrect (which would SHOCK me) then I'll be happy to find the video and show how my interpretation of events is dead on.

    What you have to understand is that I'm not trying to "hurt" anyone. I'm simply explaining the reality for what it is, reality. I actually doubt the person/guild would even disagree with what I'm saying. They thought of an idea, begged for it, and got it. I just happen to disagree with it, which is something I said quite a bit during that video (but you can't see my words since it was only in IRC Chat).
     
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  5. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    3 hours and 47 minutes (44 seconds)


    Btw, this is public record so it's not a personal attack, and it's not me trying to call someone out. It's just me disagreeing with how and why this happened.

    I didn't like it then, I don't like it now "that we've tried it".
     
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  6. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Did I say you were required to do anything? Nope. Did I say that you should back up such subjective claims and if you don't then you need to be more humble about it, yes.

    You see onus probandi has been a functional part of public discourse for millenia, its not hard to understand why.


    But, again, you are completely missing the point.
    I even gave you an example with the "more PvP"<>"flag everyone PvP" so that the concept would be easy to grasp.
    Again, you are blaming the person making a suggestion, instead of the implementation of the suggestion - regardless whether the implementation differ from the suggestion.


    So, lets see here, how can I phrase it so that you get the concept, hmm, how about this;
    Do you think it is fair for me to say: "it is a fact that cannot be denied that Baron Drocis Fonderlatos has delayed the release of Shroud of the Avatar, it is not speculation at all we can see it in several hangouts and in multiple forum posts " ?

    We both know it is true.

    But don't you think it is disingenuous and designed to hurt unless I explain why I think so and back it up?
    This since it is a very subjective fact which relies heavily on opinionated reasoning.




    (Psst, for those who wonder about my claim above, such subjective claims can quite easily be claimed against most regular community members including me).


    There we go, much better, now people can form their own opinions.

    oh and a slight tip I usually rightclick and copy at time and then do this when trying to link to a timeslot, that way people can copy paste into a browser instead:
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NZJSg8sAM3Y#t=13668

    Uhm? "public record" and "not a personal attack" are not mutually exclusive, just ask any politian.
     
  7. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I'm attacking the idea, not the people that have the idea. They're welcome to think whatever they want.
     
  8. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    That is not congruent with reality, you are attacking what you percieve was the idea AND you are attacking the person that had the idea. IF you had been only attacking the idea you wouldn't have any need to mention where the idea came from, so you are clearly not just attacking the idea itself.
    However what you are obviously not doing is attacking the implementation which differed from the suggestion. Instead you are conflating the idea and the implementation even though they differ.


    This was the request at the cited timeslot:

    This was the implementation:
    Can you really see no difference between the two?
    :rolleyes:

    And this was your claim:

    The request was to be able to heal in PvP when not in the same party.
    Yet you claim that it was about not being flagged - something which wasn't mentioned in the vid you cite.

    Yet you chose not to be humble about it???
    :eek:
     
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  9. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I stand by all my above statements.
     
  10. agra

    agra Avatar

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    Reminds me of Ryan Dancey, in 2011, during the design of PFO. He said:
    Which of course, it is. I mean, it is bad. Ask 100 people on the street. Does that premise pass the 'reasonable man test' ? It's an unpleasant, negative, bad, whatever act, even if all the mechanics are is "reduce your targets hit points to zero".
    He designed a game where unsolicited/non-consensual PvP was permitted everywhere, and that game had less than 100 active players logging in daily, just over a year after "early access".
    The best part of that? Whenever someone actually plays the game the way he intended (he's gone from Goblinworks, the game is on life support looking for an angel investor) the entire community cries "foul" and asks for that player to be banned because they're poisoning the new player experience. It's extremely difficult to attract players to the game when 30m from their first appearance in the world, they're murdered and lose everything.
    So, in Shroud, we again have a situation where players are playing the game the way it's intended. And by intended, I mean, the mechanics permit it. Why the distinction?

    Because in MMO's, if it can be done, it will be done. 100% of the time. If you permit it, players will do it. As frequently as possible. Conversely, the only way to prevent a player from doing something is to prevent it with in-game mechanics.
    It's also worth noting that dozens of customers told Ryan Dancey these exact same things in 2011, and he went ahead with "early access" in january 2015 anyway, and the game was dead by August. With forewarning from his target demographic, he did exactly what he shouldn't, and now the game is ~dead and he's gone from that company. There's lessons to be learned here. He wanted EVE with swords (or UO2) and he got a complete and utter fail by ignoring everyone.

    The harsh reality is a certain percentage of players are always jerks, it's just that Shroud makes it all optional and consensual. Don't want that thing that's permitted because you flagged? Don't flag. At least here, rather than PFO, you have that choice. I understand it's not ideal for those players that want PvP everywhere but NPC towns. However, your choice is, unflag when you enter the town. Sure, it's not great, but it completely avoids this situation, and then flag when you leave, and you're good. Yes, it's inconvenient, but again, at least you have the option.

    Now, if the day comes when you don't have the option? Look for a history repeat. :)
     
  11. Fister Magee

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    I can say that this thread has been VERY enlightening and has changed my opinion a little bit.. and as mentioned earlier, pkers be damned, I'm pvp now and forever. I think the Devs will need to weigh in here sooner than later about the direction of PVP because I do believe this could truly prevent PVP from flourishing, which we ALL want BOTH SIDES of the game to flourish, really it is in our best interests!
     
  12. sake888

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    I appreciate the time stamped video of the hang out so that I was able to draw context for myself. Thanks for that.

    Where I currently stand with the situation is that griefers are griefers. What the Devs did by implementing this PVP feature, in order to provide a convenience that was requested during the hangout, was also create a griefing loophole against players who just want some PVP action with like minded folk.

    Ironically, the griefing PK element can now exploit this loophole against flagged PVP players by simply not flagging themselves as PVP. Kinda like the wolf running across a sheep costume that Portalarium currently provides.

    As agra said:

    "Because in MMO's, if it can be done, it will be done. 100% of the time. If you permit it, players will do it. As frequently as possible. Conversely, the only way to prevent a player from doing something is to prevent it with in-game mechanics."

    I would think the devs have to close this loophole before launch rolls around. Currently, it sure would turn me off if I wanted to jump into the PVP side of the game for any reason. Not to mention deter current/future customers who just want to PVP.
     
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  13. Poor game design

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    Agreed. Currently, I remain here following this game for two important reasons:

    1. I own a PVP POT where flagging will not matter. If you show up in Rats Nest, mechanics are not going to save you. Which means many of those people are not going to show up in Rats Nest.
    2. I believe over time the developers will sort this out and as the population grows and we have a larger sample size, these types of mechanics will go away in favor of a more competitive and more solo pk friendly environment.
     
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  14. Bolck

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    This is a rule which shows a great failure to include the pvp players into sota. Why anti pvp rule like this ?

    Im out.
     
  15. Abydos

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  16. StrangerDiamond

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    You don't get it M'lady... your example doesn't work because there is no non-consensual PvP. Besides you are making an awful, immature generalization that all PvPers are not loyal. I mean in the gaming world you can't possibly make a worse observation, in fact the MINORITY of PvPers would attack someone off guard. They might be the "loudest" because people focus on the negative instead of just playing the game... but thats no excuse.

    Pirates have a code of honor, even thieves have a code of honor...

    I'm puzzled by what is your motivation to simply ignore the thread and turning the knife in the wound at the same time.
     
  17. StrangerDiamond

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    *rolling hay ball*

    Man you should see their face in every hangout when someone asks a question about PvP subjects... they think we are all aliens...

    Everybody thinks we are really unreal for not liking a medieval sims...

    Everybody likes a Sims, of course its one of the most sold game of all times...

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ThurisazSheol

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    that would give the unflagged folks an unfair advantage of using ambush tactics. - while they did get flagged once the attack began, the flagged pvper wasn't on guard for that from these folks, as they were not a threat when (s)he assessed them.


    think about it like an old west movie.

    the folks who are gonna duel are known quantities usually by reputation if not by sight.
    the innocents, townfolks like bank tellers, and those just idling around town, are part of the backdrop...to be scanned as potential threats then discarded.

    if you are gonna duel, you have 'a look about you' (in game, flagged for pvp)..



    then again, were you in a pvp zone that doesn't matter if you personally are flagged or not?
     
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  19. Hedbert

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    The question everyone is asking.
     
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  20. warxnox

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    So you mean that non consensual PvP has to be allowed for PvE players only ? What a joke, just say you wan't PK/PVP hearted-players banned from the game it would be more honest...
     
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