Gold is a problem now

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 2112Starman, Aug 26, 2016.

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  1. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    The problem is simply this - - -

    you all got a taste of some great Crack, (pixel crack) and got hooked, now the dealer has realized it was a mistake, so he cut it in 1/2 and now all you want is the high end stuff back.

    Look they screwed up, they should have never ever starts off giving to much, since it is problematic taking stuff away. It is / was to much to fast, the damage has been done.

    The game is in development and testing and just because you are not happy does not mean it is broken.

    It still needs balancing but complaining because you cannot get as high as you once could is not the answer.

    Learn how to deal with less and get along.
     
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  2. Kaisa

    Kaisa Avatar

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    Yes plenty of us who have spend hundreds of dollars on this game and or are early backers have spoken up against this change. A few even pointed out in the dev plus forums before this was released that the gold rates seemed rather low. But it was released before we really could get enough testing done to see just how bad it really is
     
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  3. Draco

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    I think what most people are missing is that getting a house and keeping it is supposed to be hard, and later game, not right off the bat. The only reason it is off the bat for some is they backed the game. But, under normal circumstances you dont come into the game and after a week have a house.
     
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  4. Mazirian

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    It doesn't really matter if we make 1gp or 1000000 gp per hour, as long as we can enjoy the game.

    It might be a "magic" number, where everything is balance and everyone happy, it may be not. Anyway, changing the rules mid game is not good, even for the best of the goals. I hope that will not happens often, just that.
     
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  5. Dung

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    People talk about not worrying, they will fix this, plenty of time etc well I am sorry but that is not correct. Housing is happening now and it is a race which will have winners and losers and considering that the game is still in Alpha it seems wrong.
     
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  6. Mogdurok

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    Some great discussion here. I'm with some of the points made, it all comes down to the fact that the recent gold nerf cut into adventurers' fun too much. There are people like me out there that hasn't gotten serious about crafting and rather take up arms and fight the evil in the land. However, if a good run of the appropriate level scene yields only enough gold (after selling the now often broken or very low endurance weapons) for 3-4 Health pots/recall scrolls, that's when the fun diminishes significantly and we start to feel like it's a chore.

    Simply put, the gold nerf makes it so that for people that prefer to PVE for money, our "time spent playing" to "sense of reward" ratio is out of alignment.
     
  7. Arthur Ironfist

    Arthur Ironfist Avatar

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    My suggestion would be to increase the mob density which would increase your potential gold income while scaling back the xp slightly to compensate for the increased mob density.
     
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  8. kazafk

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    To those that think everyone should be able to get everything asap without effort. Your thoughts are very wrong. In every mmo and even in reality you have to work for what you get. Now you say, i get nothing now. Thats not exactly true, you just have to adapt now. Dont get me wrong, ive been crying huge tears too, when my favorite hobby i invested all my holidays into aka grinding 8-10 hours/day went downhill and ive been freaking a bit. Freaking a lot. Fact is, you need to make money one way or another and you cant get handed everything on day one. The game is meant to be played longterm.

    The other thing is, the higher your level, the more money you can make more fast. But even if you hate grinding, you will level up somewhere meaning things will become faster over time. Ive not dreamed this, i see it at my char. Going to low level areas as a high lvl character to kill faster and make no xp aside is the wrong strategy to have fun or make gold. Get stronger, kill high lvl stuff faster and get up your char. Try to even kill stuff that wrecks you first.

    As i said ive been one of those crying huge walls of tears. I did adapt and im still finding loot not exactly amazing. Not at all. But as i said too, income will get better over time, the stronger your character gets. You will feel it.

    The lottery of lots is that problem. Players that made a lot of money pre r33 are able to buy multiple tickets without thinking about it. The first lotterys shouldnt be made as a goldsink for ppl with x tickets already owning 3 lots, but should be simply just made for those that dont have any lot at all atm. And for the newcomers to the game, that maybe get aware of it today and start playing tomorrow. But those ppl are a bit screwed now, since they need some time to stock money for tickets, without playing 10hrs a day now. A good idea would be too, to give away the first lot prices in 6 weeks or later, and again only to those that do not already have one or more taxfree or addon lots. Just outta fair chances to those that have no lots and no money atm. Ppl dont need 3 lots when the game just went persistent while others have none.

    Lets compare it to rl. I dont get the monthly money for my lot in a day or two. There are case studies out there about property in rl and the effort, how much ppl actually work to pay it. Those studies say, if you grind a third of your worktime at your workplace to pay your appartment, you do it right for what you own. They say too, an apartment should max cost a third of your money per month approx, to enable you a good existence with what you earn. If you work harder, you can get a better rl lot. Putting this in context to the game, the prices and the time investment for getting gold arent that wrong at all, they even fit those studies. And even the right lot size for every time investment is avail.

    The last thing i have to add is about all this discussion about the hardcore players vs casual. Ive been playing more than hardcore how you all call it since persistence. I have had more than some, less than others. I went poor into rel33 and cried. In my case i blew away the money as soon as i had it on nice stuff your vendors sold me. You made money cause of me, a lot of money. My reward for doing what i did. Thats slowed a bit now with less gold made from loot. But i can still adapt.

    The devs need to keep us busy for weeks,months and years. If we beat the game in 3 weeks and faster than they make new content, its wrong. And it has been like that, even if i first didnt see that too and moaned on irc how everything freaks me off now. Maybe, but just maybe the loot should be worth max 20% more to fix things. And this is from the perspective of a so called hardcore grinder. You can get your stuff casually too, but not in a day. Adapt and move on.

    There are guys that will always have more than you, due to time invested. Stop seeing everyone that has more than you as someone, that must be a cheater or something else, cause youre jeleous on what those guys have, cause you can play less atm. Work for it, if you want it too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  9. Phiedrus Oliva

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    No, the problem is that the tax was set according to the gold an average player make per hour to fit the effort Portalarium set as expected.
    And then they change the gold income.

    The problem is that they made players believe that an in game gold tax is required while it is COTOs what Port really needs and will make players pay.

    The problem is the feeling that a single variable can be changed at any moment affecting the value of the property they sold you.

    Taxed properties will take a part sustaining SotA, so better take care of the sense of value we, players, give to land.
     
  10. LoneStranger

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    The problem is that it's been two whole workdays since then, and they haven't had a chance to analyze the data and react to that yet. Maybe they lower the rent. Maybe loot returns go up. Let's just relax, folks.
     
  11. Modu

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    If you nerf it hard and let the players sweat it a bit, then later when you crank it up slightly, it will feel like a boost, except it's really still a nerf. I guess if I think about it, you don't need an economist to run an MMO, just a good psychologist.
     
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  12. helm

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    Two whole workdays, and still seeing exactly zero comments from the devs. Maybe they are so busy analyzing the data that they can't spare half a minute posting a comment. Would that be physically painful or something?

    Regarding the data collecting strategy, where one makes a huge change and goes off whistling to spend the weekend, now that'd be just plain wrong (I'm not saying that they do it, but I'll go along with the gist of your suggestion) in this case, on more than just one level. At least:
    1. Firstly, the "optics" of this kind of behavior are just not good at all. It makes many people worry, even infuriates them, and for a good reason, given the level of communication. Reason? See item 3 below.
    2. Secondly, I'm not sure I would want to touch such data with a five foot polearm. For example, change like this makes folks to do weird things that do not reflect the "normal" gaming situation (see my test for example). Or go to an entirely different direction, like scrapping everything instead of selling. Or stop even trying to do any gold earning by adventurous actions. How can one filter them out? One can't, one can just guesstimate the amount and nature of weird behavior and factor that in. One might as well just make it all up, without pretending to collect any "hard data" that is actually worth analyzing...OK I'm exaggerating a little bit here to make a point. Which is that such a data would be basically junk.
    3. Thirdly, and this bears repeating, they are not messing now with, say, the respawn rate of silver in some obscure mine. They are messing with the very basics of post land rush period housing. So I really hope you are correct, and they will do something soon. Until I hear a word from them, I'm not relaxing (and as said previously this does not relate to personal situations in any way, I'm perfectly OK with my lots and everything).
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  13. Solazur

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    Color me a cynic but this whole thing has feel to it like somebody wanted to see what the COTO sales would be. This is all confusing as well as annoying. 1st the pets are allowed to run wild and those who got together on it would take pets to CP's and basically watch the pets do the work.
    Now of course that's no longer possible with the changes to taming whic from my perspective isn't a bad thing. But to shut down the ability to even earn enough to cover your cost? That's insane. Well almost... doing it at the same time you let the ore floodgates open up... that's some real bad stuff man.

    @Chris please explain to us in non bear hour terms how this makes sense.
     
  14. Bow Vale

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    I would hope the idea of raising resource spawns while lowering loot drops would be to stimulate the economy, and get people earning more of their income from this aspect of the game where the resource can be sold to other players or finished goods, allowing all to participate to a degree and to exchange monies between players a little better.
     
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  15. Charlesscott1103

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    The only vendors that are commission free are the ones that people who paid a lot of money received with their backer rewards. Even the public vendor has a drawback ie. you pay a fee to place the item, and then at the end of the time limit your "commision" is taken.

    Since my last post I have found a few more places that are slightly more lucrative..but the issue remains...Loot sucks. Vendors paying 30 gold for an item that says its worth 200+ gold!? Ridiculous. I should think an item would sell to a vendor for at least 1/3 of the value.
     
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  16. helm

    helm Avatar

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    I would hope so too. However this, of course, requires that those other players actually have the spare money to purchase the goods :)

    I assume you meant also that, certain finished (and semi-finished) goods could possibly be sold to NPC vendors at a profit. This is feasible to some extent, but needs some capital to begin with, which beginning players might not have, and has largely been nerfed away as an option.

    Case in point - just made another little experiment with this. I wanted to improve my tailoring skill a little bit, and happened to have 700 wolf heads lying around in my basement corner. I feared they might be starting to smell. I also had some not so fresh looking animal hides lying around, so I decided to make wolf hats out of them and improve those tailoring skills at the same time. Now turning 700 hides to leather, and turning those in turn to leather straps, and making the actual hats requires about 1100 curing salt, 3000 wax, 8 bone needles, 7 tailoring scissors and 11 tanning knives (assuming you don't repair the tools because repair kits are more expensive than bulk tools, thankfully I had had an artisan version of the tanning knife myself). With the price of 6 for the coal and 4 for the wax, this would translate to an investment of 1100*6 + 3000*4 + 8*100 +7*80 + 11*80 = 20840 gold.

    Well, I made the hats, thankfully with just mild RSI symptoms. Had I sold all the hats I could have netted a bit over 20k, but I put aside about 200 exceptional ones to improve my masterworking later, and sold just the "bulk" versions to an NPC and made a small profit of maybe 10k (I expect to sell some of those masterworked hats later with a better price).

    Now could I have got some of those fuel materials cheaper? Quite possibly, but that's not the point, my main goal was to make a realistic experiment in an average player situation, not to min-max anything. The point and moral of the story is that even if you have the materials, making a profit out of them by selling to NPCs might not be that easy. Most of the potential goods that might be sold at a profit have been nerfed so that the tiny profit does not justify the hours spent. And as said already, selling to players instead requires, well, that they have the money to begin with. :)
     
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  17. Charlesscott1103

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    When did you do this? Wolf hats now sell for 60 gold instead of 100. Yup..they nerfed another way to make profit :(
     
  18. Bow Vale

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    @helm
    Thank for doing that, I had been thinking of doing this with my wolf heads as well but always thought there would be no profit in it by selling to npc's and i would never shift that many wolf hats to players unless we had a dress as a wolf party each month for a year, so i never did. I will later if i will at least break even i will be happy with the gains.

    No i didn't, i meant other players. If i had my way there wouldn't be any NPC vendors in the game. A lot would have to change for that to be feasible, increased drop rates, player agriculture, needs for all materials, as in the case of wolf heads, what good would 700 of them be without npc's to buy them? and players sell to each other, and the biggest change is a capped crafting system where players can only specialise well in maybe one a few areas.

    One of the problems i see at the moment with the skill system, is that there is no real specialisation by players in the crafting/economy side of things, we generally all want to be able to do everything. Why would a player buy enchanted items while at some point in the future with all the materials they have saved they can do for themselves, cheaper, make a profit selling to others ( although everyone has that idea).

    As an example, someone not too interested in crafting but puts most of their time into combat( changes of a capped nature needed here as well), runs about killing things, looting and for them a resource gathering specialisation would be most ideal. Here if they specialise into these individual skill trees and maybe an Overseeing 'Resource skill' which takes a lot of xp to raise, they would have markedly increased drop rates, increased speed etc, over ones who don't. To gain all these advantages they would not have enough xp to put into other skill areas like refining or production, or they might not even be allowed to.

    A person who is more specialised in refining with the same architecture of the trees might collect loot out while in combat, as they still free(time constrained) but these would be a small fraction of the person who has specialised into this field. They would get the majority of the items needed from the resource gatherers, either through vendor sales/contracts with/public vendors etc. They would also put out buy orders for loot on vendors, knowing they will get x amount of materials from an item when salvaged and get work out profits from.

    Then the producers, who could still do very limited resource gathering and refining would buy there items for production from the refiners and sell as finished goods to the general populace.

    Each person has then a specialisation and everyone is reliant on others, it produces a stable market after a while, with price fluctuations at times, maybe due to lowered amounts from looting/gathering due to seasons/weather/disasters etc. but generally all items will have a worth of a specific value to the various sets of players and from this an equilibrium would over a short time be found.

    We at the moment are all stifling the economy generally as we all hoarding everything because WE want to use it not sell it as if we sell it then we cant advance those specific skills. The trouble with this is we are making a self sufficient and siege mentality and even though we are all likely resource rich at the moment with the decrease in gold loot we are all feeling poor. AT the moment we all train up all the gathering skills so we can gather as much as we can, then we also train up all the refining skills as obviously ( when they have advantages) it makes sense to if we refining, and then we use in the production areas of the game, and I'm sure all have skills in every tree and in every skill, if not they generally plan to. This is ruining the economy as there will be no one to sell to if we can all do everything ourselves.

    Case in point :)

    Yes you could of from a resource gather or refiner, if of course you WERE a producer and more specifically a Tailor.
    But your intention was to rifle through your bank and see what can be used to raise that specific skill, and we are all doing this all of the time. In the end we will all be producers, some better than others sure but we generally wont be buying of others that much at all, just making for ourselves., equals no economy.

    In my ideal, an amount of gold as loot should still be dropped by mobs, this will be the general everyone earning base amount., enough to pay rents and repairs, everything on top of this should enter the player economy and be used by people in differing roles, all making a profit along the way and all having a purpose with their vendors and their role in the world.
     
  19. Elwyn

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    My understanding is that this is intentional. In crafting those you received producer XP and opportunities to raise skills. They don't want the result of crafting to sell to NPCs for more than what the raw materials would sell for. (There are even a few really bad cases such as Wooden Boards still having their value set to 1. Don't let those expire off the public vendor!)

    It's the old "equivalent exchange" concept going on here.
     
  20. Fister Magee

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    At least crafted goods price might (SHOULD) come down! Maybe this is the goal.. we have no income to buy multi-thousand gp sets of armor. I like buying off merchants, but with current income, the old prices of items needs to come down, or the lower income we are finding will always be painful. Let's all just lower crafted goods prices, and at least, that market might come back up. PVP is gone though, until they reduce ransom.. they increased ransom and reduced income, severely impairing my ability to pvp.
     
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