1. Here you will find official announcements and updates. These announcements are also linked in the Official SotA Discord server.
    We encourage comments from the community! To keep the announcements official, we ask that comment threads be created in the General forums for player input.

                                                 Thanks!

Let's talk about combat!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Chris, Nov 27, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. smack

    smack Avatar

    Messages:
    7,077
    Likes Received:
    15,288
    Trophy Points:
    153

    Hmm, perhaps it's calculated as: # hotbar slots mod 3. If that equals zero, you gain a locked slot. That still maintains the 1/3 rule.
     
    LordRussell likes this.
  2. silverserpent

    silverserpent Avatar

    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Sorry folks but I am getting an uneasy feeling about this skill/deck thing. I think Chris mentioned we might be experiencing stress. Well, stress and worry I suppose. I am a traditionalist
    when it comes to RPG's and what I am feeling uneasy about is the idea of the skills on the combat bar that fade out after awhile? I mean, why? I'm fighting a 50th level barabarian horde and my
    uber-skills fade out when I need them is going to make me strike the monitor!

    I think the system feels to arcade like for me. A number of games use some form of skill bars. I suppose they work. But my problem with them is that you get a whole bunch of icons and try to
    remember what each icon does is annoying. I think a simpler system of gaining skill points via training or use and then being able to assign more points to the abilities you are adept in and only being
    able to assign less point at first to abilities you are just starting. So we could have a simplified panel that lets us assign points to skills. Then we can possibly select the skills we want in or out of combat
    that will be automatically applied when needed. Example, I got a new bright shiny sword and have spent many a day at a combat trainers learning how to attack and block with a sword. Now I am awarded
    a certain number of skill points for the effort. These skill points cannot be used for anything else but for combat with a sword. However I can assign how many points of skill points awarded to attack, block,
    etc. skills that I would presumably have learned from a combat trainer. If later I run into a thief at a tavern I could spend the day learning how to pick locks or whatever and based on my ability to do
    so then be awarded a certain number of points to assign to that skill.

    Whenever I want to USE the skills they will automatically be applied based on the action I attempting at the time. So, no combat bar, icons or whatever to in my opinion cause a loss of immersiveness
    to the game. I want the game to FEEL like I am in an environment where my virtual actions mimic what I would do in real life in that situation. A skill bar/ decks just adds more to a the minamilist
    UI the developers want to achieve.

    SilverSerpent
     
    taka, Subotai, Isaiah and 3 others like this.
  3. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All interest to even try SotA out vanished with this combat system.

    How anyone can see this card system as a good PvP system is nothing but amazing.

    Having to focus on cards instead of looking at the opponent isnt a good system.

    What PvP flow and interaction with your opponent will this system bring? Very little. You will instead look at cards.

    And getting that lucky card that gave you the win cause you pressed your mouse on it isnt skillbased PvP. It is luck.

    My learned skills should be available all time not getting popped up randomly by the game. The game should give me skills to use not decide what skills i can use in a randomly manner.
     
    FahQ, Sir_Hemlock, Juvez and 5 others like this.
  4. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I think we all know the real answer to this.

    The more I look at this card system the more I think why?..... What's the point?

    I just fail to see how limiting the human decision making process and replacing it with a system number generator can be seen as innovation or progress.

    I really hope that come March I can post on this forum and the Dev+ and say how very wrong I am. My instinct tells me that it won't happen because it will be as bad as I imagine.
     
    Juvez, Isaiah, vjek and 4 others like this.
  5. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    I am looking to the Shroud of the Avatar team for innovation, and like the idea of the proposed combat system. So thanks for bravely testing new ideas!

    My one concern, which is represented in the FAQ, is the need to divert even more attention to the combat bar than what the 'standard' may be now in MMOs. There is something to be said for knowing what button to push to get a desired effect, without having to look at the key board. This is especially critical in PVP.
     
    FahQ and derek6665 (Baldrith) like this.
  6. Kilhwch

    Kilhwch Avatar

    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    725
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

    This leads me to think that the "non-combat" tool bar will not allow combat skills. The choice for this may be so that you can't just hurl fireballs constantly while in town, or something.

    I don't think they should limit the skills on the non-combat bar.


    With regard to discarding skills, I think I mentioned this before in Dev+ but wanted to repeat it: I think a keyboard equivalent should be available so that people don't have to use the mouse to drag skills off the bar; say, SHIFT+# ? And make it bindable to whatever.

    I don't wanna drag to discard; makes it feel more like Solitaire.
     
    MalakBrightpalm likes this.
  7. Ashlynn [Pax]

    Ashlynn [Pax] Avatar

    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    2,242
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Female
    Some aspects of this system just don't make a lot of sense to me. I simply can't tell what going with this card system is trying to achieve. I get the impression it is trying to be different for the sake of it rather than because it improves gameplay in any meaningful way.

    For example - the random icons popping up in different hotkey slots just sounds incredibly annoying and distracting and colour coding them or changing the UI a bit won't make any real difference. (and the main post suggests they haven't found a decent alternative to icons along the bottom of the screen so far).

    But most of all it seems they could achieve almost the exact same level of randomness by having the skills and abilities in preset hotkey slots and just making them randomly available to be used - they are greyed out until they are dealt and remain available for X number of seconds. But at least then you'd always know which key was assigned to your fireball spell or whatever and wouldn't need to keep checking the bottom of the screen to see which hotkey slot it appeared in this time.

    In which case the question becomes: Does what is effectively assigning skills/spells to a different hotkey slot at random intervals add to the gameplay?

    I'm not sure it does.

    But there are other things too. I also wondered about the comment on consumables. So potions are subject to the same level of randomness? And what about utility spells and abilities such as light or magic unlock or whatever? How do they fit in? Do you need to be "in combat" to cast them?
     
    docdoom77, FahQ, Juvez and 7 others like this.
  8. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    Anyone who has bothered to distinguish me in their minds from any other forum poster probably knows I have been very vocal in my doubts about this card system. I will re-iterate here my firm intent to try it, to give it a chance, to see if I can "get into it" and even to take advantage of it's potential. I don't deny that I might just like it after all. Indeed, this post greatly increases my hopes that will be so.

    I would say that, very specifically, the ability to build a deck with locked slots for my crucial hotkeys, so that a SMALL number of skills are always right where I want them, will allow far better combat than pure randomness. I can almost hear someone on the design team saying "but then people will just lock all their slots and we'll be back to a traditional action bar", there must be an echo on the interwebs. I'd like to see a slightly bigger fraction on the available locked slots, making my skills Noble has already denied me the combo mechanic AND increased the cost of the skills, if I'm willing to take that hit to get stability, I'd like be able to see 1/2 my skill bar locked, that lets me control a small but viable tactical array on my action bar, and use the other 6 slots to mix alchemical combos and random opportunities as I'm able.

    My fear for this system is that when held side by side with Locked Noble skills, the reduced cost, greater effectiveness, and potential combos of the random draw will still fade before the simple convenience of always knowing that my index finger is touching my "rabid wombat" attack key so I don't have to so much as blink in order to use it, whereas the random cards (and especially any combo building there) will necessitate not only looking but mousing and click/dragging within a time frame dependent on random card availability.

    In most normal systems I've played, combat between truly equal characters was determined by the skill of the players, as expressed in the decisions they made on how to move or when to use skills/powers/items.

    Given that switching decks will take several seconds of doing nothing, my guess is that ambush equals death, unless you are running around with your character already set up to fend off an ambush. Which would make an anti-ambush deck as useful as a solar powered flashlight with no battery.

    His post specifically stated that he wanted both the skill selection for decks and the USE of those skills in combat to be random, not controlled by a complex AI. It's the same question as "will it be better to use the system or just push 1111111?", which I would modify to "faceroll", since just pushing 111111 will give you a lot of dead clicks on an empty slot, whereas if your deck is all attack skills, and you just push every hotkey constantly, you will throw your attack skills as fast as they come. Which is still a serious contender as I understand this system.

    Ok, I kinda get what you are wanting, but a crucial aspect of this game's design is based on control by a skilled player, if everything is an automated response based on pre-programmed skills, why even have a player at the keyboard? Just program your attacks and turn it loose on a bot that runs around, come back in an hour and see how many kilz and fat lootz you've got.

    I think the idea you are pushing here is the extreme opposite of what the Portalarium team is going for, though I wouldn't at all object to some halfway synthesis, where my character is trained to always follow up a blocked attack with an attempt at a counterstrike, or responds to a bleeding wound by attempting to use a staunching ability.
     
    Annavas Azon likes this.
  9. Kilhwch

    Kilhwch Avatar

    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    725
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

    Or, have lower tier skills build up charges that 'unlock' higher tier skills. They're grayed out until you'v built up the power to use them. At least in that case you're not waiting for something to happen; you're doing something.
     
  10. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    I'm with Malak on pre-programmed skills. I don't like the idea of fully programming a queue of skills. That would be just 'bot'-ing the skill rotation used in any other MMO.

    The value in the dev's proposed system is some amount of randomness and surprise, which also has the virtue of creating some amount of player skill to choose wisely from the choices available. I do think this approach could raise the bar on 'thinking' combat. Provided it didn't become the game, to the exclusion of what else is on the screen.
     
    Mishri likes this.
  11. LoneStranger

    LoneStranger Avatar

    Messages:
    3,023
    Likes Received:
    4,761
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Petaluma, CA
    Also, this would allow skills that depend on some other circumstances like flanking or achieving a certain distance to be unlocked.
     
  12. smack

    smack Avatar

    Messages:
    7,077
    Likes Received:
    15,288
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Can skills be used out of combat?
    Most skills can be used out of combat. There are a few, like the "Control demon" spell that you cast to try and take control of the demon summoned by the "Summon Demon" spell that is combat only. Of course it is combat only because as soon as you summon the demon, you are in combat and it is trying to kill you. There are some situational combo spells that are combat only as well.

    I'm going to say that yeah, you can use some combat skills out of combat. Otherwise he wouldn't have called out a combat-only one as an example. He could have just said no combat skills. And when in town, well, they need to reveal the PvP system to see how that affects the hotbar. For all we know, the hotbar can't be activated in town.
     
  13. aevans

    aevans Avatar

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    545
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Assuming a maximum of 5 skill levels for each of these skills, and given a potential fade out time of 10-30 seconds, what difference will adding 0.5 seconds to the fade out time make? Or even 1 second at 10 levels.
    I can see the benifits of decreasing the time to the next skill by 0.5 seconds, but not a 0.5 second increase on the fade out time.

    Discarding a skill removes it from the combat bar, freeing up a slot. After some amount of time a new skill will take its place. If you use a skill in a non-locked slot, does the slot then become empty and another skill eventually fills it in - or does the fade out time still have some effect the slot being filled with a new skill?

    There is talk about combos and other features increasing or reseting the fade out time. I'm guessing the advantage to this is you get to keep them in their slots so you can use them again, instead of having them replaced with other skills.

    Will an unused skill fade away after the potential 10-30 seconds thus freeing up a slot for a new skill? If you have an unwanted skill, is there any reason to let it fade away on its own, or is the plan to discard it and have a new skill take its place.
     
  14. silverserpent

    silverserpent Avatar

    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    In response to what Beaumaris said about the SOTA team being innovative I agree. I don't question the fact that the people are talented and rather than following a formula which I gather from the team
    is something that don't want to do I still contend that this system of cards or whatever sounds out of place for a game of this type. Shroud of the Avatar is a fantasy role-playing game emphasizing exploration and playing in an open world as you like to. The combat system to me somehow seems unnnatural and out of sync. But you know the alpha release 4 candidate is being planned for March so I will be examining
    the skill system assuming it doesn't change and assessing it then. That would only be fair. Chris in his preamble about the skill system states that the team are open to our suggestions which I appreciate.

    And MalakBrightPalm, yes I think a half-way system exactly as you said would be the way to go. I'm not advocating a system where the player is redundant but rather one where the characters abilities are
    governed by the skills of the character as a result of decisions the player is making through the course of the game. Perhaps the designers are thinking the same thing. That is, the skills available are based
    on criteria your character has mastered. I don't believe the system should be based on random rolls of a dice nor decided without the player.

    This is what Ara has said and sums up the way I feel.
    And getting that lucky card that gave you the win cause you pressed your mouse on it isnt skillbased PvP. It is luck.
    My learned skills should be available all time not getting popped up randomly by the game. The game should give me skills to use not decide what skills i can use in a randomly manner.​
    SilverSerpent
     
  15. Luitpold

    Luitpold Avatar

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Question: How long would it take to make an entirely new combat system at this point?


    Opinion: Honestly, every time I hear something about the combat, I become even less enthusiastic to try it. I think part of it is that I'm totally biased towards the hands-on approach of mount & blade. The other part is that something has always struck me as odd about the character POV and gameplay. I feel as though they don't match up at all, and that it would look better from a camera scheme like Dungeon Siege.

    If I had a choice at all, I would say give us some options to experiment with on our own. Let us measure the deck system and POV against the traditional way of things.
     
  16. Dermott

    Dermott Avatar

    Messages:
    761
    Likes Received:
    1,346
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Florida
    Hmmm...

    Reading through the outline and FAQ, and looking at the old combat demo (yes I know it was far from ready and far from the final product), I'm still unsure on the whole Randomizing Combat Skills is going to work out in practice. I think I understand the theory behind it, but I'm not sure that in practice it's going to work as well because it seems like it's going to break the flow of combat fairly often. As a turn-based system, I'd be 100% in favor of the idea. In a real-time RPG battle, having an intuitive input system can make all the difference.

    The portion that I REALLY like, though, is the creation of combos. It kind of adds another layer of mini-game to the system without it getting in the way. From reading the proposal, it reads a lot like the little freebie game Alchemy where you start with the four basic elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water) and combining two together give you a new item. Then those secondary items can combine with the original Elements or other secondary items to create further items and so forth for a certain number of possible combinations. I like that concept as a new way to create depth within the combat/skill system especially compared to the old level-based system of Fire1... Fire2... Fire3 where it's simply the same spell just with bigger numbers.

    Question though on Combos. Will that be a possible system to unlock Skills that become standard, or will they always have to be created "on the fly" manually when the two skills come up. Basically, given the above example of:

    Fireball + Fireball = Fire Storm
    Fire Storm + Fireball = Fire Vortex

    Will discovering these combos allow Fire Storm or Fire Vortex to become possible Skills themselves to be added into the deck for the next combat or will you always have to rebuild Fire Storm, then Fire Vortex (before Fire Storm gets cycled away)?
     
    derek6665 likes this.
  17. smack

    smack Avatar

    Messages:
    7,077
    Likes Received:
    15,288
    Trophy Points:
    153

    If you mean can you add Fire Storm back into your deck during combat via Second Guess, I would assume so. But I don't think it will create a new permanent skill that you can configure your deck with.
     
  18. lordpriapus

    lordpriapus Avatar

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    It is for the most part a luck-based system - think Magic: the gathering. Does not translate well into a computer game IMHO. And forget about PvP, where's the skill come in?

    Will everyone please step out of this bubble that exists on these SotA forums and see what MMO players in general are saying about this (hint: not a single positive comment):
    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400527

    I hope this system is not finalized in any way.
     
    EWHART, Isaiah, vjek and 2 others like this.
  19. smack

    smack Avatar

    Messages:
    7,077
    Likes Received:
    15,288
    Trophy Points:
    153
    While there is an element of luck, I don't see it as the core part of the system. There is a lot of skill involved in deck building. The skills you configure your deck with, the gear you have and the choices you make given the skills dealt to you. Admittedly the deal is random, but the ability to manage those with focus skills and having to think on your toes are all elements of skill. It is a new system and is definitely not finalized, especially how it is presented for players to "control" or act upon.
     
    derek6665 likes this.
  20. timedilation

    timedilation Avatar

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    3
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.