Levels are killing this game

If it was a copy of the shardfall perhaps then. Call it the Armchair Napoleon Shardfall.

 

I wouldn't say levels are killing the game. I do think that the grind of leveling is the most boring part of the game currently though, aside from the small, boring scenes themselves. Combat is a very important centerpiece of this game in my opinion. Combat needs big improvements, I'm sure we can all agree on that. If the combat were fun and interactive, that would be an excellent improvement. Currently it's just not fun combat. I am not against the level/skill grind itself, it's how boring it is as we're doing it. I do remember before the combat change to use based saying that it looks like it's going to be grindy, and Chris replied that if it were he could easily make adjustments to fix that. We need ideas and everyone working together to fix the problems in Pre-Alpha. We will all sometimes disagree with opinions, the important thing is that we help come up with ideas to help fix the problems. I know we all are passionate about this game and want it to succeed. Hopefully, between the devs and the community input we can strike some compromises and come up with some ideas to help fix it.

 

Still leaning towards a shardfall. Make it worthwhile so its still fun.

 

100% agree but dont want Boy 1 to win because he killed more spiders. I want Boy 1 to win because he builds decks better and fights better. Not because he has 150 extra hit points and mana.

 

I agree. We can't expect to fix the floor if the foundations are not solid. BUT even taking this perspective Progression and levels are hurting the game, as i tried to illustrate in my previous posts. Grinding is boring; not being able to kill a monster because he has thrice my health pool is frustrating. Same things applies to PVP, as Blake Blackstone stated up there.

I previously stated my opinion about what SotA combat is lacking, and i will do so again when a thread treating the subject arises if i'm in the mood to write those again (or to create one myself).

 

If you want to test max templates and skills you shouldn't restrict it to any location. It should just apply everywhere.

 

Just keep in mind though, those hp and focus are a representation of the boys combat ability. We are controlling a character within an imaginary world. What you are describing is twitch based combat (which i also enjoy) but it then alienates all the rpg fans that want progression as well as everybody with slow reaction time, slow internet, a computer too far away from the server ect. Our character is meant to be growing, not our keyboard skills.. though a little of both mixed togeather is always nice.

 

That's a valid point, but we already have skills that allow our character to grow in that direction... two, in fact; Strength and Healthy. Gaining health by raising levels only widens the gap between levels. Why not just keep the two we have? or just one?

That kind of reasoning can be applied to the benefits level gives (focus and increased dodge in PVE).

 

Yes i think that bonus is purely there to gate what areas people access, i would agree that it wasn't needed if it wasn't so lightning fast to max out individual skills. From what i am looking at in game, it doesn't seem to be health that the adv levels grant.. its a hit chance bonus. (similar result i know). The reason i like this is because i want to play for a very long time, and i want to still have something to work towards over a long period of time. At the moment the only thing not killable for a party of 3 people in the first week after release is the dragon and (and this is exciting) the lich room in the compendium which has been tweaked into ouch mode.

 

Well its true that RPG fans want character progression and some people don't want it too twitchy, but that doesn't necessarily mean either want fights that depend completely on stats, because that leads to boring fights... since all you're ever going to do is pick fights you know you can win. Plus, not all player combat skill is twitch, its also tactics .. the type of thing you see in turn-based games.

I think area gating btw is a bad thing.

 

I am not saying i want it to solely depend on stats, we went and killed the mini bosses at level 10 for a reason heh

 

@Themo Lock,

Yea. The thing that concerns me more is how safe it becomes to fight below your level. It's more of a fun game IMO if you can lose to a monster below your level if you aren't paying attention to the fight... that way you don't have to constantly ride a level rail, finding tougher and tougher monsters to fight.

Plus, I think it would be great the more tactical elements the devs get in the game, so winning against higher level monsters isn't just about twitch skill.

There's another issue that I think is relevant which i mentioned to Drocis... and that is how convenient it is to grind. I think if you're playing a single-player game -- for instance like Skyrim -- you don't feel like you're grinding, because you just fight things you happen to come across while you're adventuring. The problem in too many MMOs imo is that they facilitate grinding with hunting grounds of endlessly re-spawning monsters, often re-spawning in the same locations. I don't know how much can be done about that, though personally I prefer spawning rules that convenience players less.

 

That's not really what I'm complaining about, no. It's not cool to twist things around so poorly.

 

I'm certainly not arguing that my 13 level character should be a 70 level character. I'm saying that if I can't atleast do SOMETHING meaningful, then I won't be playing pvp until level 70, in which case some that was level 70 will probably be level 110 by that point, and the arms race will never stop.

So fast forward 6 months into the game, is anyone new going to show up and pvp? Not in this set up. Is anyone that's not at the tail end of the level grind going to pvp? Probably not. So who's the pvp population at that point? A handful of solo players that grind more than they pvp, so they can continue to be at the top of the mountain, and guilds.

Does that sound like a good environment? Not to me, and I'm not worried about being high level after launch, I'd just like more people to be in the pvp areas (like my town).

 

Disagree entirely. The one thing I will say though is I miss being able to level through questing. I don't like grinding either and being able to get XP by completing a quest (even if I was getting way too many at times) was amazing. I could easily get to level 20 by completing the Hidden Vale quests and I didn't consider any of them to be spoiler-ish enough not to do them. Now though? We've switched to a use-based system which means that progressing your character by completing quests has been thrown out the window. Now you must grind. Levels were never the problem.

 

There's a way to make all of that work; an ungated twitch system with turn based elements and a meaningful progression. But there's no point on trying to make those work as separate things; All of those may grow from the very foundation of combat, and because of that the basic elements of the game needs to change so that kind of mechanics may emerge in further development. SotA has very good elements to go in that direction, but in my opinion they're wasted, masked by the rest of elements in the game.

There's still time to take advantage of these systems and modify the rest so a desired kind of combat experience (notice i didn't say system) may grow after Pre Alpha.

• Where combat has a flow that guides us through it, giving us choices to be taken in a split second, and that works for both PVE and PVP.
• Where actions DO matter, and it's true skill and placing in combat what poses a difference between victory and defeat.
• Where dedication is rewarded, with challenges for those that want to push his/her character to the limit.
  
• With meaningful PVE fights, scaled according to the kind of enemy you're fighting and not an internal number.
• With meaningful PVP fights that makes our characters part of something bigger.

Those are the crucial points that needs to be satisfied in the end that i can come up with, and we can't expect to have them without looking for what is preventing us to achieve those. "The system is grindy", "the combat is boring", "level matters a lot" and the rest of statements are consequences of the bad elements in the foundations of the combat experience. Identifying the stuff that wrongs those and proposing new systems that promote them is the best way to start pleasing everyone. As Ice queen said

But before start fixing, what needs to be fixed needs to be identified first.

 

Exactly. If boy 1 was winning because he was good at pvp, that's fine. But that's not how we get good...we get good at pvp by leveling in non-pvp. It's crazy stupid.

 

From the outside looking in...

Does it have to be a 1-on-1 battle? Can't newbie low-level PVPers get together and roam the lands in small groups, levelling up together? They could battle other newbie groups or gang up on more experienced PVPers who are solo. Just wondering.

 

That's a good question. I think groups of low level players should be able to chase off solo high level players as a way of countering the levels. Currently it doesn't work like this, I've found in groups against a single high level player and we couldn't do anything to them because of all the hit points, armor, and innate abilities. Someone at level 70 (for example) could easily kill off 10 people at level 20, in fact they could probably script it, go make themselves a sandwich and come back just to collect all the loot.

The regen rates and hit points are so high by the time people get to level 50+ that lower level players can't even break the skin of higher level players before they're fully healed. I mentioned this earlier, but I think one of the easiest things we could do to fix this would be to make DEX, STR, and INT a zero sum game.

So if you max out STR and get all those hit points and regen rates, you'll be much easier to hit, you'll hit less often, and you'll have less focus because your DEX might be like 50 and your INT might be like 30. So you have choose more what you're trying to do and you'll have some inherent flaws in your game no matter what level you are. I don't know why we're pushing to have 100 DEX, 100 STR, and 100 INT...it completely unbalances the game for lower level players that might wish to contribute something in pvp.

 

But you're saying that you have proof that levels matter a lot showing fights of your level 13 character against a level 70 character... that totally gives a wrong impression, labelling as proof a situation where everyone expect levels to matter; that's why being level 50 against 70 may make a better point. Nonetheless, the real issue is not in comparing the level performance but the required effort we need to get there. Also, we jumped from discussing how level still factors in the game to the gap generated by the effort, and it's convenient to remember those are currently different concepts. I am level 38 or something but i have 50k of experience unspent so my level is not appropiately depicting my power.

What's really meaningful when talking about this gaps of power is not the numeric values but the amount of time invested to reach those. That's why i'll bring back the graph i posted earlier. Who doesn't love a first order LTI system?

Spoiler

That's the kind of progression over time leveling each skill should have, and i'd venture to say this is what Chris has in mind when he talks about the amount of time required to reach to GM. This is how it's intended to work, but some of us perceive additional beenfits that make the gap in power or the amount of time invested much higher. The real question is, what is creating that gap?

I've been saying that stats doesn't belong to the skill trees since they were implemented, and that's certainly a solution. Also making characters to reach the stat cap (i don't care about how hard or soft that is) early in the leveling process may help greatly into generating competitive characters without the need of climbing all the way up (given that stats are one of the main elements that defines a character).