Levels are killing this game

There was a lot going on in the Felucca facet of UO. You had structured PvP such as guild warfare, chaos/order, and factions. Then there was the criminal system which allowed the average player who wasn't in guild warfare or factions to participate in PvP in some form. There were thieves that could steal from people and were part of another layer of the criminal system. Then you had loot incentive that created even more conflict on top of these other systems because often times a player's corpse was full of loot and people couldn't resist leaving the reagent bag alone or whatever loot might be worth stealing and trying to run away, hide or escape in someway before other players could run them down and kill them for being a criminal. And sometimes players would go grey on purpose and try to take on multiple opponents within the time frame of their criminal timer.

I want to see a system of laws and virtue implications...it just makes more sense than a death match environment where everyone just slaughters each other. ah well.

 

What am I looking for? The same thing that most past UO PvPers have been in search for over the last 10+ years....... Combat that is akin to pre Pub 16 with a few enhancements.

What I don't to it to be is like a game of chess.

 

The pvp crowd huh? You mean people that show up to tournaments? Or the people at level 70 and above? I wonder how many of those people there are. I can only think of about 5 or 6 by name. I guess if you count the tournaments you might get as high as 15 to 20.

Of course there were roughly 100 at the kill lord british event, but I wouldn't call that representative of the "pvp crowd". Maybe it is though, obviously I don't make the pvp rules up, and I'm not level 70+ so I can't really "hunt" where those people do.

Every release I go visit PVP towns and Shardfalls, but rarely do I ever flag pvp. I've seen ONE person flagged pvp so far in R23 and that was short lived as 5 minutes later they were unflagged.

So if there's a crowd of PVP people, my guess is that crowd doesn't really form until everyone in the crowd is high level or there's a tournament on, in which case that's just a few hours a month.

I had several people break into my tower last release and I certainly involved myself in PVP then. I think they would say I was part of the PVP crowd, as I was killing them.

But what was your point again?

 

Many of the systems you mentioned such as factions were not in game at release. I would like to see stealing from players in game for players flagged as open PvP. As far as full loot for me that is not fun for me anymore. I had 5 houses full of useless crap. I think we should be abl to take an item that will prevent someone from getting back in the fight quickly. As far as killing people anywhere you can get that by killing PvP flagged people anywhere. Why kill people who want no part of PvP that is less challenge then fighting a npc.

 

*shakes head and walks off*

 

I'm not saying full loot should be the norm. I'm just saying that UO had a lot of different things going on that made for some interesting player conflict. The rules in Felucca were too brutal for most folks but since we have a system of player owned towns and what not...it seems if you let those players determine their own laws and rules for pvp it will make for an interesting game. In my previous posts I've tried to push for town owners creating their own laws and even jailing repeat offenders of those laws. If the laws are strict then you'll have to learn how to control yourself while you're in the town limits. If the town is lawless and has unrestricted PvP then you'll know what you're getting into when entering the town. POT's could be like mini-facets...if they are pvp areas, you don't have to go there. There should be clear visibility (on the website or in-game or both) of what the laws of the town are, and when the laws will change. Town owners should be able to change their PvP loot rules as well. (No looting, Ransom, Full Loot, etc)

Town law examples:
- No PvP. Players cannot attack other players in the POT.

- No PvP in town limits. Players will be warned by guards for brandishing their weapons in town. Guild warfare and dueling can occur outside of town limits. If players fight inside town limits they will be knocked out by the guards and thrown in jail. They must pay a fee to get out, and their reputation with the town is affected. If they continue to break the rules they will be thrown in jail the next time they visit and no bail amount can be paid. These players must be pardoned by the town owners to be removed from jail. Town owners can determine the threshold of jail duration and criminal offenses, etc. Offending players can exit to world map at any time.

- PvP - Feuds only. Only players from certain guilds can fight in the POT. Multiple guilds can be added to a feud. (variant of chaos/order)

- PvP - Guild wars only. Only guild vs guild pvp is allowed in the POT.

- PvP - Unrestricted. All PvP is acceptable in the POT.

But what if your POT is connected to a large town like Brittany? Would the laws of that town affect the laws of your POT? How large of a radius does the 'law of the land' of large NPC towns affect other towns, or do they at all? Just some thoughts.

 

Where is everyone seeing their adventure level still anyway? All I ever see is I gain exp then lose it as I lvl skills.

 

Drocis, just for clarity sake.....is this what you want for PvP:

- No levels
- Everyone equal
- Ability to counter everything
- Combat slowed down
- No healing

 

hit the "v" key in game and it will be on the top of the context list

 

I want combat to be fair and balanced. I would say that list includes some of the things I would lobby for. But I'll touch on each one to explain why I feel that way, and where I draw the line.

No levels - I wouldn't rush to pull all levels out of the game. But it would certainly be better than what we're doing now. I think there's a progression balance that could be found, but ultimately I don't think it serves PVP to have anyone 50 levels higher than someone else. That only creates situations where one person always wins and one person always loses. I'd like to get away from that model, and making levels less impactful would be an important step towards that.

Everyone equal - I'm not looking to make the game like Halo or Counterstrike where you pick one of a few templates and run off shooting at each other, no. But I would like to see the number of people in the game that like PVP have more opportunity to win because I feel that gives us the best chance to have large amounts of people playing pvp. I have a theory that people don't like to lose and so if the barrier to losing is very high (read: it requires 4 months of leveling to achieve) I doubt we'll have as many people playing pvp as we would like.

Ability to counter everything - Yes, we should have the ability to counter everything. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that we have this by default or that building a character doesn't matter. I love the attunement system, but there are huge gaps in that system. Just because you're great at Sun Magic, it makes you weak against Moon magic. So are we satisfied knowing that anyone using Sun Magic (of appropriate level) will always win? I know I'm not, I'd like to think that even if I build a pure Moon Magic character I will still have ways to fight against someone blasting me with Sun Magic. And for that, we need viable counters, for everything.

Combat slowed down - The amount of skill involved with "running around fast" is minimal. Yes, there's some nuance involved, especially if you're using weapons and moving about trying to time/judge lag and your opponents range. But that's more an art and less a science, and by art I partially mean that you have little control over it (no matter what we may tell ourselves).

The real power in this system is derived by levels and build. If it weren't, then we'd see a lot more lower level people flagged for pvp. If it weren't, then we'd see more diverse builds instead of the very popular 3 or 4 we have now.

What I think a lot of players make the mistake of doing is reading things like this and saying "he's taking a shot at my skill as a player!" Which isn't what I'm doing at all. I'm saying that if the game were designed differently, it would require more skill to play than it currently does and that would be more inclusive of competitive pvp.

The current nuance involved with moving around may or may not be a combination of server location, internet connection, and luck - we have very little way of knowing that without deep investigation on a case by case basis. There are some people playing right now that are very far away from the Austin, TX server, and others that are very close. That network traffic gets resolved one way or another, and currently the network host in Austin assumes that everything your client is telling it is "real". So not only does that leave us open to hacking, it also leaves us open to normal internet nonsense. In short, it's not an environment where "fairness" is really built in. I don't call manipulating that reality a skill, I call it bad design. And yes, many games share this same bad design, I was simply hoping we could try to be better than those games.

No healing - I think healing is OP (less so now than it was in the past, but still very OP). In this DPS tug of war, where one player fights against another to do more damage than the other person can regen (or heal), having a spell that requires no reagnets, doesn't fizzle, and virtually has zero cool down, is OP in my book. I can think of better ways to record damage, but assuming we keep the healing the way it is, it's OP and should be nerfed considerably. It's not mandatory for PVE, it's just super convenient. For PVP it's almost mandatory.


Finally, here's one you didn't mention. Making STR, DEX, and INT a zero sum game. Right now people max out on all three of them and I think that's hurting the game A LOT.

 

I do like some of your ideas here. The key thing is for the community/owners of POTs to create content . I have fait that if we try to come up with compelling PvP in game and not on the forums the Devs with take notice.

There are several examples of non PvP things that are now in game like a gustball that got Dev support based off of something the community invented with what they had. The event chests are another example. We as a PvP community can write nonstop on forums about what we want but other then a handful of PvP events sponsored by a few people is not going to get the attention of the Devs.

 

I actually think that the devs read these forums quite a bit more than you think. I'm moonlighting right now while I'm away from my gaming computer and I'm unable to play. If I could be in-game playing I would. But I've found this is a good place to share and discuss ideas, and I have a lot of first hand experience seeing the game adopt and adapt based off feedback from these forums (not just mine, but many people).

 

Just brainstorming ideas that would make me turn the PVP flag on; besides less grinding, longer releases, less wipes etc...

Simple solution to the PVP flag issue...
When flagged on allow players to set a "+" or "-" character level range for engagement.

crude examples...

PVP Flag on.
Engagement tolerance: = < My current level (Allows anyone else with PVP flag set to "On" with an equal character level or lower to attack you)

or

PVP Flag on.
Engagement tolerance: < My current level (Allows anyone with a lower character level to attack the player)

or

PVP Flag on.
Engagement tolerance: <=> +10 My current level (Allows players up to 10 character levels higher or any amount lower to attack the player)

or

PVP Flag on.
Engagement tolerance: -5, +5 Allows player +/- 5 character levels to attack the player... (If this option existed, this is probably how I would set my tolerance)

ETC...
Attempted PVP engagements that do not meet the character level range, would be send a standard PVP request.

I think more people will PVP if they at least thing the fights are going to be fair"ish".

Even if I'm getting ganked by 3-4 players that are around the same character level as me, I feel like that's ok...but if I'm level 25 and most of the PVP guys are 50+ my flag is staying off....

Let players choose their desired level of victimization (Except in dedicated PVP areas of course)

 

Seems like a good idea... but its a roleplayer's nightmare Especially if the game is not very well populated...

 

I don't think I question the amount of time devs are reading forums. I know they do, my point is there are tons of ideas that are shared on these forums and some of then receive attention but when I compare it to the list of things that players have done in game which the devs saw as a good and popular idea they helped make better. Gustball, Avatar Radio, public cache chests, items like hedges for players to build mazes and obstacle courses, etc etc.

I am impressed with your webpage for your POT, I would like to know what other ideas you plan to incorporate into you POT that will draw players there to live or engage in PvP?

 

Thank you. My plan to be attractive to potential players looking for a place to live revolves around the idea that no where else in Novia (or even in other games) will offer the amount of risk and the amount of reward that Rats Nest does. I mean that both in terms of it's direct connection to a Shardfall (and rare resources), but also the unique roleplaying adventures that can only come from full pvp where the players are all on the same playing field.

Will there be events? Certainly. Will Rats Nest have a local economy and a need for crafters and trade? Of course. But beyond that, Rats Nest will be a city where the stories will be a little more meaningful, where the heroes and the villains are a little more real. Where roleplaying meets up with reality.

That's the goal, that's the dream. I have a lot of work to do between now and then. I know it won't just happen as we launch the game, it's going to take some direction and influence on my part. One of the first examples of this will be my ability to keep some kind of reasonable order in the town so that people feel safe enough to trade and walk the streets (at least, some of the streets). That is why I'm planning on using an army of NPC guards, and likely a small group of players that work as an auxiliary force to plug up some of the AI gaps.

I hope that gives you at least an idea of how much I've thought about this. I do have a plan, but I'm flexible and adjust it constantly. Wish me luck.

 

Part of the reason PvPers get the non-PvPers backs up is, I think, the loaded language. I have no interest in PvP in SotA, if I want PvP I'll go and play CS:GO or Chivalry, this is not being "afraid".

Me too. Though I'm still waiting for the much vaunted "real test" of the use based system where we all start with no pool of experience or multipliers.

But then I also think "Pay To Win" is not the great evil everyone on the Steam community seems to think it is, so I may just be getting old.

 

The populations for PVP are low for a reason. I would suggest that the overwhelming reason is because:

1. When populations are low, it prevents pvp. You can't PVP if you don't have players. Single Player Online contributes greatly to this problem, in pvp areas. It's kind of a never ending cycle, if you're a pvper or just looking for a quick fight and you don't find one, you don't really want to be in "high alert" mode for hours on end as you're trying to grind resources or gold or experience. You're going to be at a significant disadvantage by doing this, and so single player online mode becomes your best friend as a protected way to go into PVP areas and not be attackable as you grind out hours of "fun".
2. Both PVE and PVP players are afraid of losing to someone that is higher level. Which is why you don't see a lot of people flagged for open pvp, unless of course they've reached a level where they can win against 99% of the population and there are only a few people out there that might even give them cause for concern. Most of those people are probably either friends of theirs, are in the same guild, or are rarely seen because they're always in single player mode trying to maintain that level advantage.

Reasons 1 and 2 support less PVP, which is why there's so little of it going on in R23 or any other release for that matter.

I have another thread that I created regarding disabling single player online mode in my PVP POT, here: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-player-online-mode.39594/page-12#post-455923

 

For me the jury is still out about Single Player Online, this is the first release I tried it and I was not a big fan because I like to see and interact other people. I hardly make it through single player RPGs, even those with great story lines, because interacting with NPCs get boring.

I enjoy being on "high alert", I miss having to watch over my shoulder when I am out gathering resources or making my way through a dungeon. Maybe I am a dying breed of PvPer. I remember the ealry days of UO, when a group of "reds" would camp the major mining areas they pretty much killed me 8 out of 10 times, but those 2 times I was able to get away with my resources were such fun times. Once I was in a guild and they would try to kill me, all it would take was for me to say in voice coms that reds were at such and such place, my guild would arrive in force and we would kill them or they call in their friends and we would battle for hours.

As far as losing to a higher level, the only time it bothered me was in a duel or 1 v 1 tourney. Just a couple of nights in a PvP POT, I used my stealth abilities and hid behind buildings and killed a 2 time GM player. My skills are mid 50's. It was awesome!!!! He called in some friends and we spent the next hour playing cat and mouse. They eventually cornered me and I died. By then I had a friend log on and we went back and we fought 2 v 3 for a bit. Things seemed pretty even despite the 3 of them being higher level. I think it was that way because my friend and I were in voice com and we have fought together in PvP for about 7 years so our ability to focus one target to kill and cross heal each other are good. I am not all that good as a 1 v 1 PvPer, but in a group I know how to effectively either focus fire on a target or interrupt a healer so we can win the fight.

 

I find it so ironic that the main reason we're refused a siege perilous instance where Rats Nest would take all its "meaning" is because RG supposedly said that he dosen't want to segregate players.

(I still think you detractors ALL understood his statement the wrong way...)

But the game CONSTANTLY segregates players... you get put in different instances even if you're with people in a party and even if they're on your friend list.

I find myself having to zone alot of times just to get back in the right owl's nest instance that is actually populated. If there is noone on my friend list I can zone too... TOO BAD AHU YOU PLAY ALONE TONIGHT.

Even if say I just get randomly disconnected or the game crashes, I'll log back in and be completely ALONE in the whole city, while I KNOW theres a party going on in the other instance.

And not only that, Single player online and friends online IS segregating the players as well.

The whole issue with my demands is FLABBERGHASTING.