Levels are killing this game

Levels are absolutely killing this game. Normal people don't have time for this. Normal people don't want this.

Dear developers...I never go on quests. I never like the tour guide quests. I never like grinding. I actually LIKE questing. But I don't see the point of it during testing. It ruins the story, most of the quests are incomplete or in their first stages of iteration, there are a lot of bugs, etc...

But the main reason I don't quest is because it takes away from my grinding time. And I absolutely HATE grinding (read: standing around killing the same things over and over again).

So why do I do this? Why don't I PVP? I love PVP. Why don't I quest? I like questing. Why do I grind so much (read: 95% of all my playing time) if I hate it?

The reason is, levels. And honestly if I wasn't so heavily invested in this game, I just wouldn't play this game because it's not fun to level. It's not fun to grind. It's not good.

So why are we doing this? Why does everything that's fun in this game involve leveling and grinding to a maddening degree? I don't understand.

Yes, I'm aware that some people actually like grinding. I'm also aware that some people use it as a social gathering tool, almost like social drinking. But I'm not one of those people, and judging by the number of people that play this game each release, I may not be the one.

Levels are totally killing this game, and I don't understand why we're letting this happen. If you need me for anything, I'll be standing in the same spot killing the same thing endlessly for the remainder of R23 (that is, when I have the time to play it).

 

Oh, and here's three recommendations:

1. Go through your combat code and search for "LVL" in any combat math. Then remove that variable from all source code. Then put a new line of code into your math that reads "LVL = LVL * ZERO" that should help balance some things immediately.
2. All PVE spawn points should work like control points. ALL OF THEM. That way if someone walks into the area and starts killing spiders, the spiders eventually say "ok, I don't think we can kill that guy. Let's call for backup!" Then eventually the spider king shows up and just crushes whoever is standing around killing all his spiders.
3. Burn gustballs, send the ashes to the pits of the abyss, and require people to fight SOMETHING that's not an inanimate object.

You're welcome.

 

Yeah its massively annoying, doubly so as some skills (like purify blast) don't level (or at least so extremely stupidly slowly its almost as bad as not leveling). I would love to actually be able to avoid the grind, unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen.

 

I'd love to be able to pvp!
But I can't because I'm not high enough level. Not to mention no one will be there to pvp with me because they're out getting more levels!

I'd love to be able to roleplay!
But not one will be around because they're out grinding! And the random people you meet are either afk gust balling or just stopping by town before they run back out to level!


Really, I've been saying this for two years and it's never been more true. If you want to make a great game, you have to ask yourself these two questions EVERY TIME you add a new mechanic. Is it good for roleplaying? Is it good for PVP? If the answer is no to either of those questions, don't do it.

 

I agree, some things have to change. PvP is dead, RP is dead, the only thing going on is shroud of the twitch/social/real life IRC chat room.

 

Like, I have friends and family that will never play this game if it's a level fest. They don't have time for that. I worked all week, came home and worked most of the weekend already. So now I have some free time and I'm going to relax by killing stupid AI for 8 hours so I can maybe sorta someday play PVP but only if I don't play against people that are 50 levels higher than me?

This game will be dead at launch if we don't fix this. We need to find a more compelling and inviting core combat system.

 

Yea, I agree with you that levels shouldn't matter too much, but grinding and leveling are two distinct issues.

Grinding can be for xp or for gold, so, first of all, it doesn't go away when you take away progression.

Second of all, what makes grinding grinding is that its mindless and easily to do. You killed all of the wolves in this scene and want to kill some more? No problem, because they're going to respawn a short while after you kill them, giving you easy targets to kill again, and after you kill those, they'll respawn again. But say, if quests were much more efficient ways to gain xp than monster farming, then you wouldn't have the dilemma you're describing, deciding between quests and grinding.

 

There's at least ONE major problem in the combat math based on levels. Once you hit about level 30 to 35, small monsters like spiders and wolves just start missing you for no reason other than you're a higher level. This continues the higher level you get, and it also impacts pvp, greatly. PVP has other major issues with levels, but I'm not going to go into detail on this because it's been going on since R9 and everytime I waste the energy of explain it, some idiot comes on here and tells me I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about...those people are usually level 60+ something, and they just love the idea of a combat system that rewards them for having the time and ability to grind their way to pvp nirvana.

And yes, you're right that people can grind for gold etc...but that's not an issue I meant to bring up here. That's more of an economic issue that I believe will be fixed over time. The "levels" grinding issue is something I believe the devs have long ago decided was a good way for people to "have fun".

 

This has been a problem since probably a month or so into development and we saw the first in game screenshot that included a level number. Many people thought it was a bad joke. Those initial bad choices were called out back then and simply never managed to be corrected despite a lot of feedback. Now we got a whole game that was designed around level based grinding zones compliments of design choices by those who champion the EQ grind. Heck, there is even zone level markers in game as a continued insult.

 

The game has already been dumbed down so much that you barely need to put in the very minimal of effort to compete and you want it even easier? There is a point where you have to stop blaming game mechanics for personal shortcomings. Any easier/faster and we may as well rename this game Sim Player-owned Town.

 

All I know is we need to attract some more players to this game. I am all for harder, and I always fight against the easy ways. I remember early on that you get so much more satisfaction from playing when you earn it. Right now in sota no one wants to earn anything, they just want to get to the end, but I do not know why lol.

 

You can not just gustball all day because you will reach your max pool of skill points. So yes if you do gust ball training you have to leave town to level.
Yes leveling your skills means fighting monsters as well as doing quest. Questing is the lube to your grinding.
The level of all your combined skills is sort of represented by your overall character level. Your character level does not mean however your going to be any good at pvp or even pve if you do not manage your skill selection effectively along the way and learn how the combination of skills work for and against each other.

I don't think you just have monsters start missing you when they attack because of your level(someone who knows can tell me if im wrong). Its because your armor skills(perhaps dexterity) have been going up as you train your character. Does that make sense?

Im curious because your complaining a lot about the current direction of the system but I wonder what your ideal idea of a system should be. Should there be no skill points or levels. Should everyone start out being able to do everything at the same base. Same armor stats and same damage stats without any skill system at all?

I kind of liked being able to purchase the skill levels. And for testing purposes I thought it was extremely important. Now were getting closer to the real release of the game I understand the importance of testing out how it's all going to work in the end finale. So do you think we should go back to the purchase skill system?

By the way I like having the progress bar(skill level) it enables people to discuss and compare things I think... In UO the max "level" was basically "7x".... You could use the 700 points how you wanted and it didn't have to be 7x(could have split the points however you wanted) but it was easy to tell people how far your character was in the game. I think character level is a little superficial to be upset as you are.. just saying.

And there is talk of incentives being created for PVPing and PKing between the good the bad and the ugly. The Game is getting to the point before the excitement so i am trying to be patient. And I want to be more productive and less condescending. I understand the investments we all made in the game. I was very upset for awhile. But realize this is the process of making a game. The answers are not always clear and things come and go as trial and errors. I for one would love to hear more ideas being thrown in. I have been enjoying the game. It's not perfect. It's not done either. It's progress is real though compared to other games you can play before the official release date. And if you make suggestions in an Honest way you can take part in its creation.

So anyway Pvp will have incentives soon, the quests are not finished so you can't really play the game like you want yet and there are not enough instances to explore (especially)as a single player to get rid of that feeling of grinding. But the game is not finished yet so don't lay your executioners axe into it yet. GIVE SUGGESTIONS!

Right now the only incentive to play the game is to help in its creation. The grinding just gives us something to do in the meantime. I like it. I like leveling. I played UO forever. I never played other rpgs much. My friend was into Eve.. you can level your character while offline.. I couldn't get into eve though and Im not sure that would be a good system here. What do you think? what did\do you like?

 

Sorry but the GAME requires it being played, I am soooooo glad I have started a NEW char without 4x exp, and that I HAD to do some quests to get some gold, and balance my plain out just killing crap and mindlessly grinding with some intelligent decisions.

Themo has it nailed this game has been so "dumbed down" to accommodate player who just want to go out a kill each other that it is sad.

Devs keep it up, game requires players to "PLAY" which is GREAT.

 

I abhor clunky levels, but tolerate them in certain mediums. Tabletop with new players, side-scrollers...and I guess that's it. But, here's the caveat...

Skills are levels, but with a finer gradient.

Levels in this game aren't actually "Levels", but calling them that makes players think they are the same. Traditionally, "levels" increase hit chance, avoidance, hit points, magic points (focus), and a myriad number of things. But, in this game, all those are now covered by individual skills. What you see as Adventurer Level is really just an abstract calculation of the combat skills you have attained. And, the problem is, that "hidden" number is used in hit/miss calculations in PvE, which perpetuates player perception that it's still a level-based game.

I get it. Levels are currently used to create a flow in the game (read: artificial gates). A number used as a measuring stick to tune difficulty in a given area. It is the arbitrary method to justify why "this" wolf does more damage and "this" ore node gives more resources. And you can still use it that way. You just have to change what it looks like to players.

So, what if "Adventurer Level" was changed to a skill called "Combat Awareness" or "Tactical Expertise" or "Martial Prowess"? That skill would go up as a product of gaining combat skills. Heck, you could even use the same formula that "Adventurer Level" uses, but call it something else and put it in the Tactics Tree, and set it to always gain XP (i.e. cannot lock it).

Because the reality is, it's all perception anyway. If you are going to design a game around a Hit Chance/Avoidance Modifier, call it what it is. A combat skill.

TL;DR- Make Adventurer Level look like just another skill by putting it in the Tactics Tree and giving it a different name. Done.

 

Yeah, not a fan. Not sure what starting a level 1 person out at 80 HP accomplishes really.

Start everyone off with the same health and let their skills determine everything else. If I'm good with a halberd and my defensive skills are top notch them I'm going to preserve my HP better than a new player... let that be the determiner. Simple to me.

 

We Need PvP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So you're saying that my incremental armor skills that were at X but went up 1 point to Y somehow made a difference where lower leveled creatures could no longer hit me? And that's NOT levels making a difference, because why?

Even if it's the skills, it's still just levels. You can't be Skill 100 in something at level 1 or level 5, you have to be at least probably level 25+ something to have a 100 in any single skill. So it's still levels no matter how it's actually working. But in this case, I believe that once your actual LEVEL hits a certain number, lower level creatures start missing you - a lot. And I'm guessing that's even if you have zero combat skills related to defense.

Bottom line. Is it easier to script against a gust ball in the center of town, or against an NPC that eventually dies and has to respawn? Do you think maybe that's why people are still gust balling? Yes, is the correct answer.

 

We'll have to disagree on what "dumbing down" is then. I would say any combat system that allows you to kill the same thing over and over again so you can become good at pvp is really dumbed down. But like I said earlier, some people really love that style of play. For me, I doubt I would even participate in PVP if the only thing that mattered was levels. If I wanted that I would've played WoW or EQ.

The point of the OP is not to make leveling easier or faster, it's to make leveling a lot less about standing at the top of the same tower killing the same dark elves for months so you can reach level 100. That's not really a compelling thought is it? I mean, who would do such a thing? Better yet, why would we want to make a game like that when clearly we have evidence that suggests large quantities of players are not going to put that kind of time into the game because it's not fun let alone a show of skill.

 

I never stood on top of any towers unless i was making coffee, but yes i killed allot of the same thing to get 100, mainly due to the lack of variety with the options. With the old system levels had almost no bearing on PVP but with the use based system .. each individual skill level actually does matter. The use based was a means of making the top end levels obtainable by everybody without having to live my insane path to 100.. but as a result we have mass macroing and afk training and the same people that did not like the system in relation to PVP STILL not happy with PVP... and in addition the people that did like it before either left, had a break or stopped PVP. Balancing the entire game for PVP has a huge negative affect on the PVE side of things, which is a shame because i enjoy both. The leveling system is not the issue, it is the lack of reward for PVP. I expected that the start of the looting system would have had a bigger draw than it has.

 

Ok, a few things...

1. The day that I'm level 100 and you're level 50, I'll pay more attention to what you have to say about the impact of levels on pvp. Until then, I subscribe to the theory that people would love to pvp, but they can't because they're not high enough level. It's an arms race that no one can "win" but many can lose.

2. I love the use based system. I have nothing but good things to say about it. This thread has nothing to do with the game being use based or not.

3. Levels mattered in the old system as much as they do now. I find it AMAZING that you can say levels don't matter or that it's not an issue. The idea that somehow if we just make the right rewards then people will flock to pvp is comical. But here's an idea for a reward, how about making a combat system that is fair and balanced and doesn't require months of leveling just so you can stomp on anyone that hasn't done months of leveling? How's that for a reward?

I didn't come here to say I told you so, because that doesn't get us anywhere. I just want a good game with good pvp. But at this point, by continuing to keep the same narrative about the combat system you're essentially doubling down on the titanic making a comeback.

Everything I've said about the combat system for the last two years has been dead on. And we're finally starting to move in the direction I begged for from the beginning....so feel free to jump on the band wagon. I know what I'm talking about. If we want a fair game, we can't have levels deciding who wins and who loses. If we want a fun game, we can't have months or years of levels between being good and being bad.